Ethical Question

[BusyBee]

Hi! This is a bit of a long story, but I'll try to keep it short. I currently work for a small marketing agency as Director of Social Media. Since we're small, I also have a hand in brand development/strategy, website development, advertising, etc. The owner started the company about 2 years ago, after he left a larger agency. He ended up taking a few clients with him to his new agency.

I had planned to do this for at least 3-4 years to make connections and learn more, and then branch off and do what I do freelance. I have a 2 year old, and really wanted more flexibility in my schedule. I recently found out that my boss is having major tax problems, and although he seemed to have straightened them out, there are 2 IRS liens on the business and he's chipping away at about $30k in tax debt. Our main sales person recently left for another position, and we haven't had a new business meeting in 3 months! We only have 3 clients on retainer, so I'm aware that money is very tight. The retainers basically pay our salaries each month.

I had a meeting with the president of one of our larger clients yesterday, who is on a monthly retainer with us. He told me "off the record" that they'd be suspending the retainer agreement effective Feb. 1, because they are not happy with the way my boss has handled their business. He plans to call my boss later this week to let him know. He did indicate, however, that they would love to continue to work with me on all marketing activities for the business. He also said they have other companies they know of who are interested in the services I offer.

Here's my question - do I work with this client on the side without telling my boss, and start to build my own clientele? I do not want to lose the opportunity, but I know it's ethically really not the best idea. I'm just very concerned that the agency I work for is about to fall apart, and I need to be sure I can continue to earn an income.

[Wozcreative]

Absolutely not. Two reasons. 1) ethics and 2) they can be put in place to bait you. If the other company finds out, you will be out of a job right away.

If you are good at what you do, you don't need this company. You can build your clientele other ways. If you put all your coins into this "possible" client you will lose out either way.
Remember they are just talking. As a freelancer I deal with many many many different businesses. Small and large. I know it can take months for a decision to be made on wether or not to go ahead with a certain project. You are going to be left hanging without a pay check. Don't depend on one company to move you away from where you currently are working.. learn from your boss' mistake. He's hanging by a thread.

When I started freelancing I had my first client who kept giving me lots of work.. after I quit they only supplied me with work for the first few months (which wasn't much) and they ended up changing industries all together. I now don't work with them anymore but was smart enough to have a bunch of other clients lined up before I quit.

[Freelancier]

Here's my question - do I work with this client on the side without telling my boss, and start to build my own clientele?

No. It's a good way to get sued. You may or may not have a contract in place, but you can't start stealing clients from the place you work without having some legal repercussions (even if you win, expect to get sued and incur those expenses and time wasted on legalities). And expect to get fired for it at the minimum.

My guess is that your company is almost done anyway. Be patient and see what happens. It could be that after losing that business in a month or so, your boss folds and walks away from the business. Or fires everyone to save money. Either way, you don't talk to the other client until your boss' company is out of business or until you are gone from there for the contractual length of time required by whatever you signed when you started. Unless you like paying an attorney.

I had a similar situation years ago with a business I was a part-owner of. The business was going under, I wasn't getting paid, I finally quit to find a paycheck. Within 60 days, I had all the clients that I had been working on, free and clear, because they cleared it with my partners who couldn't have handled the type of work I did anyway. The clients called me. I told them I couldn't work with them until they cleared it with my partners, who were gracious enough to allow it. You don't go behind anyone's back, because that always comes back to bite you.

[huggytree]

so your wondering if taking your bosses customers and taking their business on the side is ethical? huh?

that's stealing

if you want to go out on your own, then quit and start a new business

I started out on the side too....but I didn't take my old bosses customers to do it...I found my own

I did eventually go after his customers, but only after I went full time and some time had passed.......the only customer I got was one that came to me first 2 days after I went full time

if your companies going under I recommend leaving...don't be the last one....go to a competitor or start out on your own....if you have customers waiting then go for it....I wish my business start was that easy

[billbenson]

Another way of looking at it is tell your customer you will be going out on your own in the near future. Your current situation jobwise sounds volatile. He could go belly up at any time. I see no ethical issue with telling him you may go freelance. But also reinforce with the customer that you won't do anything on the side while working for your current employer.

If you do go out on your own, don't steal your bosses customers. After 3 to 6 months I think it would be ethical to call him. But don't try to steal you current employers business. He's struggling. Do you want someone to do that to you?

[huggytree]

as far as going after customers when your on your own that's a grey area....it all depends on your relationship between your old boss and you.....in my case I was fired and made up things were put on my pink slip that went to my union.....I originally was hoping to have a good relationship with my old boss...when it went sour I went after his customers ASAP

if your boss is good to you then 6 months- 1 year is a respectful amount of time before you take his customers (unless they come to you on their own)

lots of ethical grey area's in this area.....you also have to feed your family

[johnkaster]

Your ability to drive customers makes you a businessmen. Built your marketing skills rather then thinking of such shortcuts. You should always be in good terms with your boss, not because he is your boss, but because, it is because of him you are getting such business opportunity.

[tallen]

Be sure to look at your employment contract, including any employee handbook, or other document that would be a part of such a contract -- you want to make sure that there isn't a non-compete clause buried in there.

[nealrm]

Simple questions - how would you feel if someone that you employed did that to you???

[BusyBee]

Thanks everyone. Please understand that I am not in any way looking to "steal" my bosses clients. I did not go to them and say "hey come work with me instead!". I was approached by a client, and have actually had other clients inquire about the same thing. I'm not a sleeze ball who's out to ruin my boss.

In terms of a contract, I didn't sign anything when I started here, and there is no employee handbook.

[Wozcreative]

Thanks everyone. Please understand that I am not in any way looking to "steal" my bosses clients. I did not go to them and say "hey come work with me instead!". I was approached by a client, and have actually had other clients inquire about the same thing. I'm not a sleeze ball who's out to ruin my boss.

In terms of a contract, I didn't sign anything when I started here, and there is no employee handbook.

OK we aren't saying you are a theif. However ANY business frowns upon a someone going into a company/store/salon/factory and saying to an employee.. hey I will hire you, why don't you come work for me?
How disrespectful on both accounts.

[Freelancier]

In terms of a contract, I didn't sign anything when I started here, and there is no employee handbook.

Then what that means is that if you quit and then contact his clients, he doesn't have a good legal case. He can still sue you, but he doesn't have an agreement that prevents it, so you'll likely win the case on merits. After spending a bunch of money.

On the other hand, if you make any side contacts with his clients while you're working there, then I wouldn't want to have to explain that to a judge or jury. So don't do that. Even if the customer contacts you first, it's still going to be a hard sell to a jury that you weren't screwing the person signing your paycheck.

[BusyBee]

I'm not worried at all about getting sued. My boss took all of his clients when he left his last agency to start this one.

I'm going to wait it all out and not pursue anything freelance as of yet.

Thanks for all of the advice!

[TechMan1945]

The bottom line is that you need to do what is necessary to try and preserve your income stream. I did something very similar. I worked for a company that was being sold. Even though I was getting a payout, I understood that in a few months, I would most likely need to find a new job. So, while I was still working for the company, I took much of what I learned about marketing for this particular business and began working as an affiliate of a competing company. Eventually, I did lose the job with the company that was sold, because they simply moved the call center to the state that they were in. However, thanks to building up another steady source of income on the side, I didnt lose much, and I also had the freedom of working at home for myself. That was 8 years ago. I still work for myself and couldn't be happier.

[Harold Mansfield]

Don't do any of the stuff you are asking about...taking clients and so on.

If you think the company you work for is falling apart, get the wheels rolling now to start up your own agency while you still have an income.
Bus.Lic., Website, Cards, Home office, Whatever software you need, etc. And get your contacts in place.

Be ready to open the Monday after you get laid off. Then let your old contacts know that you are on your own and open for business.

Ethics problem solved. New business open.
You may not get this particular client, but stealing them from under your bosses nose is not the way to go. Bad Karma and all.

[Wozcreative]

I'm not worried at all about getting sued. My boss took all of his clients when he left his last agency to start this one.

I'm going to wait it all out and not pursue anything freelance as of yet.

Thanks for all of the advice!

You can.. but what are you waiting for? Till you're out of a job? I started freelancing 4 months before things got even worse than they did. Now? I am NEVERRRR going back to working for someone. EVER! EVER EVER EVER... well almost... Microsoft head marketing team (huge learning opportunity) gave me an opportunity actually last month, but the money they offered couldn't compare to what I do on my own. So for now.. it's never ever.

Don't wait! You'll never do it otherwise (I know plenty in that boat).

[huggytree]

Thanks everyone. Please understand that I am not in any way looking to "steal" my bosses clients. I did not go to them and say "hey come work with me instead!". I was approached by a client, and have actually had other clients inquire about the same thing. I'm not a sleeze ball who's out to ruin my boss.

In terms of a contract, I didn't sign anything when I started here, and there is no employee handbook.

the businesses who are asking you to do side jobs are sleeze balls.....and they ARE out to ruin your boss

if you work for them someday remember they will do the same thing to your employees....get a non compete agreement before you hire anyone

[ken1drusa]

I'm not worried at all about getting sued. My boss took all of his clients when he left his last agency to start this one.

I'm going to wait it all out and not pursue anything freelance as of yet.

Thanks for all of the advice!

I'd suggest to open up honest communications with your boss!

Just present him the direct offer you got from one of his clients, but explain it in a nice way. Don't get into details. Do it so that his choices are either (1) straighten up his act so that he improves his business relationships, thereby improving both his new clients AND squaring away the taxman, ultimately improving your position, or (2) facing the truth that he has lost a client.

So if (1), you remain an employee.

If (2), you launch your own and don't rub anybody the wrong way.

[Harold Mansfield]

I'd suggest to open up honest communications with your boss!

Just present him the direct offer you got from one of his clients, but explain it in a nice way.

If you do this, there are good odds that your boss will act on emotion and confront the client. After all, he's already stressed. This will ruin your credibility with that client down the line and probably now make your boss resentful of you. It's not worth the risk.

[ken1drusa]

If you do this, there are good odds that your boss will act on emotion and confront the client. After all, he's already stressed. This will ruin your credibility with that client down the line and probably now make your boss resentful of you. It's not worth the risk.

I'm amazed at how well you know his or her boss.

[Harold Mansfield]

I'm amazed at how well you know his or her boss.

I don't have to. I've been in very simular circumstances and I've learned NEVER expect people to behave professionally when they are stressed, under pressure or when business is bad. The last thing a struggling boss wants to hear is that one of his few remaining clients told an employee that he wants to leave him. It's too humiliating. Everyone doesn't deal with stress the way you want them to.

[kimoonyx]

I am NEVERRRR going back to working for someone. EVER! EVER EVER EVER..

I don't know how to like! Please someone show me! lol.... This is a triple like... Keep it a never, Other companies never pay enough. Not even the big ones.

[ken1drusa]

I don't have to. I've been in very simular circumstances and I've learned NEVER expect people to behave professionally when they are stressed, under pressure or when business is bad. The last thing a struggling boss wants to hear is that one of his few remaining clients told an employee that he wants to leave him. It's too humiliating. Everyone doesn't deal with stress the way you want them to.

Now I'm amazed that you're also a mind reader.

Here's an example. A friend of mine is a risk taker. He ended up owing the IRS $30k after just two years running his business casually. His heart wasn't really into the business, but a couple of his employees were. So now he's enjoying his time in the Bahamas paid for by his inheritance from mommy and daddy. Go figure.

Tell me how he's different from BusyBee's boss. Is he "stressed, under pressure, a struggling boss?"

Amazing advice.

[billbenson]

Now I'm amazed that you're also a mind reader.

Here's an example. A friend of mine is a risk taker. He ended up owing the IRS $30k after just two years running his business casually. His heart wasn't really into the business, but a couple of his employees were. So now he's enjoying his time in the Bahamas paid for by his inheritance from mommy and daddy. Go figure.

Tell me how he's different from BusyBee's boss. Is he "stressed, under pressure, a struggling boss?"

Amazing advice.

You give no advice. Harold gave real advice from his real world experience. Your 'example' has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question. You haven't had any factual information to contribute to the discussion. All you are doing is name calling. In your words 'amazing'.

[Harold Mansfield]

Now I'm amazed that you're also a mind reader.

Here's an example. A friend of mine is a risk taker. He ended up owing the IRS $30k after just two years running his business casually. His heart wasn't really into the business, but a couple of his employees were. So now he's enjoying his time in the Bahamas paid for by his inheritance from mommy and daddy. Go figure.

Tell me how he's different from BusyBee's boss. Is he "stressed, under pressure, a struggling boss?"

Amazing advice.

That's 2 now. Is it just me specifically that you are intentionally being a jerk to? How many more times are you going to make smart remarks to my posts? Or do you actually have something meaningful to add, or simular personal experiences to share that will actually help the OP?

Because I've been in exactly this situation more than once, so I'm sharing my experience so that he will consider all possible outcomes of his actions.
So why do you have a problem with that?

[ken1drusa]

That's 2 now. Is it just me specifically that you are intentionally being a jerk to? How many more times are you going to make smart remarks to my posts? Or do you actually have something meaningful to add, or simular personal experiences to share that will actually help the OP?

It will be a sad day when the word "amazing" is considered name calling or being a jerk. I'd like to see factual comparisons of my example with BusyBee's.

My first reply to BusyBee is my best advice — WITHOUT silly self-projecting presumptions.

[Harold Mansfield]

It will be a sad day when the word "amazing" is considered name calling or being a jerk. I'd like to see factual comparisons of my example with BusyBee's.

My first reply to BusyBee is my best advice — WITHOUT silly self-projecting presumptions.

I see. So because you have spoken, no one else's opinion, experiences or advice matters.
And how long have you been a member here? Like 2 minutes? Apparently not long enough to recognize that this is a helpful place where we all respect each others opinions.

[BusyBee]

Harold Mansfield is correct - my boss would get extremely defensive, and act based on his emotions rather than reason if I approached him. I had a prospective client call me after a meeting one where my boss basically told them they didn't know how to run their business. The client said that they were not going to work with us because of my bosses arrogance, and complete lack of understanding of their needs. When I approached my boss the next day to explain the call I got, he flew off the handle, and called the prospective client to tell them how unprofessional they were.

I've started building my own website, and am getting things in order for when I'm ready to go freelance. Thanks for all the advice everyone!

[billbenson]

It will be a sad day when the word "amazing" is considered name calling or being a jerk. I'd like to see factual comparisons of my example with BusyBee's.

My first reply to BusyBee is my best advice — WITHOUT silly self-projecting presumptions.

It would seem BusyBee liked Harolds advice

[Business Attorney]

Not only is it unethical, working on the side for a client, or even for a former client who approached you first, is a breach of your fiduciary duties to your employer. You can be liable to your employer for any damage he suffers as a consequence of your breach.

[Freelancier]

is a breach of your fiduciary duties to your employer

I've often wondered about that, David. Is it still a breach if you can show that you're not really in a position to have an actual fiduciary duty to the business? Do line workers at a GM plant have a fiduciary duty to GM or are they just cannon fodder for the manufacturing process?