rowdy teens stealing/harrassing small business - more than one occassion. what to do?

[sbm]

hi everyone, i really need some help/advice.

i have a family member (i'll just call him John) who owns a mom/pop store. today, he said there was a group of male teens who came in and harassed him when he was alone in the store. we inspected the video footage and saw them being real rowdy -- a few of them seemed to steal items like candy bars (video quality is not too clear) and one teen even went into the cash register booth where John was. this guy put his arm around John's waist and pointed at the cash register machine while saying something (perhaps telling him to open the drawer?) but the sound quality is pretty bad. we think he may have been trying to move John out of the way to steal money but it didn't happen. thing is, John's not very fluent in English so he didn't phone the police. after touching the items in sight, laughing/yelling, and acting like total jerks, they finally left when they noticed a customer heading inside. we also noticed from the footage that there was a group of girls waiting outside for them.

it turns out that this group came a few other times when John's late-night shift employee was on the job. this employee never told us about it till we mentioned today's incident to him. this same group would do the same thing to him, as well. he didn't call the police either (even though he has no language issues like John).

we don't have the best CCTV system so the video is not even that high quality but we plan to take stills of the footage and blow the pictures up. we'll probably hang them on the doors and bring it to the police to file a report. however, i'm not sure what more the police can do. i know the police should've been notified each time at the moment of the incident but since we lost that window of opportunity, we'll have to go after getting the pictures printed at a pro photo shop because we have nothing else to show them.

what can we do to prevent this from happening next time? there's not much a person can do against a group of teens. we're afraid they'll return, and calling the cops at that moment isn't going to do much. they take forever to arrive.

we live in nyc so according to the law here, we cannot even arm ourselves. how can we defend ourselves and stop them from stealing? causing injury to another person even for self-defense reasons will not go well in this state/city. just call the police? if someone lays a hand on John again next time, what can he do? he's a much older, smaller guy than these teens...why are these kids so cruel? :(

please help. any words of advice would be greatly appreciated. thanks so much!

[Freelancier]

we live in nyc so according to the law here, we cannot even arm ourselves.

Unless you happen to be a felon, that's not quite true. You can get one, you just have to be licensed and there's a waiting period.

You could also consider getting a taser instead of a gun.

Either way, yes, you're supposed to file a report with the police. Doing that puts the kids on notice that if they do it again, you could shoot them and use that history to back up your actions. Putting their faces in the window may help... or it could really piss them off and get them to escalate. It's hard to know with teens whose brains aren't fully formed yet.

[huggytree]

hire a security guard company and let them handle whatever is needed

you cant shoot someone unless they have a weapon....if they are simply beating you up or hitting you its not a reason to kill them......if they are robbing you and you see a gun then you can kill them......NY has some sort of gun carry license....I doubt its something you can get easily.

I would also file reports w/ police to get things on record

I have a feeling a security guard (or 2) will handle the situation..if not they will quickly be on the phone with police as the situation is happening

worst case you could lock the doors and buzz people in

[Harold Mansfield]

Step 1: Save video footage as evidence.
Step 2: Report this to the police and show them the evidence.
Step 3: Arm yourself. You as a business owner have a right to protect yourself against robbery of physical harm. I cant imagine NY having laws against this with all of the nightclubs, restaurants, diamond brokers, and the entire financial district there.

[billbenson]

Forget the gun thing. It could cause you more problems than it solves unless you are well trained in their use.

Put up a good security system that can capture images of faces, time stamps stuff and cover everywhere including outside your store. That way you have plenty of evidence to give to police. Also talk to a lawyer about recording audio. That may be illegal where you are unless a sign notifying people is in place.

[Harold Mansfield]

Forget the gun thing. It could cause you more problems than it solves unless you are well trained in their use.

True. That was bad advice to give. Something as serious as that shouldn't be recommended as freely as I did not knowing the person, or situation that well.

[DennisChang]

You should call the police. Also, maybe you can talk to neighbouring stalls and ask for their help if the group of teens come again.

[huggytree]

not sure if the cops will do anything about rowdy teens...otherwise they would have to protect every business at some point

the gun thing isn't a bad idea, but like I said earlier you cant shoot someone unless they have a gun/weapon....and if they are already behind the counter with you now I don't see how its going to help....

no one else agrees with the security guard???? seems like a no brainer

call the security company, tell them whats going on....let them handle it all...let them call the police, let them fight the rowdy kids

seems like the only true solution......the job of police is to take down reports and try to solve things after they happen....the police aren't going to sit in your store and stop the kids....depending on the area of town they may have no time for you at all....my van was robbed in Milwaukee and the police couldn't come...I had to drive down to the police station to file the report and then they asked if my doors were locked because cars get robbed outside the police station.......if you are having this issue with kids I suspect your area isn't very good

[tallen]

no one else agrees with the security guard???? seems like a no brainer


I agree with the idea of hiring a security guard.

The issue, of course, is the cost. But it might be worth it --- maybe you would attract other/new/more customers into your store since they might feel safer in your store...

[huggytree]

I agree with the idea of hiring a security guard.

The issue, of course, is the cost. But it might be worth it --- maybe you would attract other/new/more customers into your store since they might feel safer in your store...

how much is it costing right now when existing customers see the problems and shop elsewhere

how much will it cost if someone gets hurt

how much does it costs now from the shoplifting


cost cant be an issue for this problem....it needs to be solved quickly.

very few problems are solved for free, no matter what it is

[billbenson]

I've said this before here, but I spent 3 years in college looking for shoplifters for sears. This is in the pre camera days. We wore blue jeans and operated covertly. I caught over 300 shoplifters. I've tackled people, been punched, etc.

Based on that experience, I prefer covert rather than overt solutions such as a security guard. That's why I like camera systems and good ones aren't that expensive these days. The latest systems run over Ethernet cable. Put movies on youtube or or give a dvd to the cops. How many news stories have you seen where some frustrated victim put a video on youtube and the media got a hold of it and all of a sudden the cops had to take action.

On that note, I have been looking at security systems for a couple of years now. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood, so its taken a low priority, but the elderly woman next door has been burglarized twice in the last 4 months, once while she was there sleeping. I have dogs that would act unfriendly if someone entered the house, so I feel reasonably safe. I don't really have much of value for reselling on the street either. What first got me thinking about it is when some kids baseball batted to death my mailbox a couple of years ago. 19 mail boxes in total were damaged in the neighborhood. I sure would have loved to hand a dvd to the cops or talk to some parents.

Anyway, a salesgirl for a security company had a really good idea. She said take a small closet and make a fortress out of it for valuables, things like the recorder for the video cameras, guns, etc. I later learned that an acquaintance of mine who lives in a not so great part of town did just that. He took it a step further and put nails pointing into the sheet rock facade. If someone tried to kick in the the walls around the closet, they would put nails through their feet. He was burglarized recently and they didn't get inside that closet.

Not a bad idea though, to make a pseudo safe out of a small closet. It would be cheap to put an alarm on it as well.

I got off track, but ooops.

[Russ in Vancouver]

Id say get a few decent IP cameras that record for a pre set amount of time upon detection of movement. A modern IP cam will have a better megapixel/resolution than an older analog cctv type camera. Install them in logical safe hidden locations to capture the faces of all the walk in customers. Or get some really heavy duty vandal proof cameras that make a statement. File the reports and have something to back up the harassment.

Or

If you have a monitored security alarm system, talk to the company and ask for a (total connect system, its a Honeywell brand) with camera surveillance and a panic button. This plan will have the central station monitoring your cameras at set times of the day and also have the feature of panic button. So if the clerk on duty presses the panic button installed under the counter or worn around the neck as a pendant, the monitoring company will look in on the cameras and if they see trouble they will call the police and dispatch immediately based on a visual threat verification and the cops love to come fast when they know they have a chance to catch bad guys rather than waiting half a day for them to arrive just to file an after the crime report.

link here total connect (http://www.mytotalconnect.com/yourbusiness.php). It rocks!!!

Best of luck to you

[essentialed]

Here's another idea, although it takes a bit longer, vote! Vote the idiots who took your right to defend yourself freely out of office and reclaim your Constitutional rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In fact, organize others around you to vote those that have taken your rights out of office. Then you would be able to freely let these youngsters know they cannot come in and threaten others without consequence. They clearly know there is no effective way for you to defend yourself and they are taking advantage of it. If they seriously thought you could/would defend yourself, then they are far less likely to act.

Until then, I would agree that getting a weapon is a very personal decision and requires much thought and training. Security would be best and good cameras would be second. Involve the police at least for the paper trail.

[Harold Mansfield]

Here's another idea, although it takes a bit longer, vote! Vote the idiots who took your right to defend yourself freely out of office and reclaim your Constitutional rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In fact, organize others around you to vote those that have taken your rights out of office. Then you would be able to freely let these youngsters know they cannot come in and threaten others without consequence. They clearly know there is no effective way for you to defend yourself and they are taking advantage of it. If they seriously thought you could/would defend yourself, then they are far less likely to act.


No one has taken anyone's right to defend themselves away. But that doesn't mean that you can just shoot people for harassing you, or just because you don't like them. Self Defense laws are about protecting life when there is immediate danger, not revenge on punk kids.

There is nothing in the Constitution or any state law that says it's OK for you to shoot and kill people just because they've made you angry. The problem here is one of trespassing and harrassment, not deadly force.

Now if the kids start waving weapons around or threatening harm, let the chips fall where they may. If you live in FL you'll probably be in good shape come trial time.

[billbenson]

No one has taken anyone's right to defend themselves away. But that doesn't mean that you can just shoot people for harassing you, or just because you don't like them. Self Defense laws are about protecting life when there is immediate danger, not revenge on punk kids.

There is nothing in the Constitution or any state law that says it's OK for you to shoot and kill people just because they've made you angry. The problem here is one of trespassing and harrassment, not deadly force.

Now if the kids start waving weapons around or threatening harm, let the chips fall where they may. If you live in FL you'll probably be in good shape come trial time.

I'd say that is pretty accurate. Even in FL though, you have to really show you were defending yourself. Even if someone tries to punch you and misses and you hit them, without some sort of evidence that they attacked you, you will probably be arrested.

[essentialed]

No one has taken anyone's right to defend themselves away. But that doesn't mean that you can just shoot people for harassing you, or just because you don't like them. Self Defense laws are about protecting life when there is immediate danger, not revenge on punk kids.

There is nothing in the Constitution or any state law that says it's OK for you to shoot and kill people just because they've made you angry. The problem here is one of trespassing and harrassment, not deadly force.

Now if the kids start waving weapons around or threatening harm, let the chips fall where they may. If you live in FL you'll probably be in good shape come trial time.

I would respectfully disagree with you. When the State simply mandates what i can or cannot do for protection of myself, then they have taken away my "Natural" rights, as the framers called it. I fully agree you have no right to simply shoot someone for harassing you and did not imply that should be the course of action. But in our attempts to create a more "civil" society we have taken away the fear of consequence. So a group of teens like this, knowing there is no possible retribution due to the laws restricting people's rights to defend themselves, can become more and more aggressive. Or it simply creates a known "target" in the community and leaves the business owner at a real disadvantage. The OP said the teens came around the counter and actually laid hands on the clerk. That is VERY aggressive behavior and is clearly a sign they are becoming more and more emboldened by the lack of resistance. When the James Gang tried to rob a bank in a small town in MN (I think) they were shot to pieces by the various small business owners who were not about to let the criminals run the show and take their money. People don't commit crimes against people they think can and will defend themselves. Laws in NY, in my humble opinion, leave the law-abiding citizen at a huge disadvantage to the criminal. While some may choose to leave themselves in such a condition, the government should have no place in limiting that guaranteed right.

[Harold Mansfield]

I would respectfully disagree with you. When the State simply mandates what i can or cannot do for protection of myself, then they have taken away my "Natural" rights, as the framers called it.

Shooting people is not a "natural right". People repeatedly confuse what they personally want to do with what the actual law allows for. This country isn't based on "natural law" theories. It's based on actual written laws of what you can and cannot do in respect to your fellow man, property and community.


I fully agree you have no right to simply shoot someone for harassing you and did not imply that should be the course of action. But in our attempts to create a more "civil" society we have taken away the fear of consequence. So a group of teens like this, knowing there is no possible retribution due to the laws restricting people's rights to defend themselves, can become more and more aggressive. Or it simply creates a known "target" in the community and leaves the business owner at a real disadvantage.

So in your opinion, retribution means shooting them. I agree, teens don't think. And in this day and age with so many trigger happy people out there I have to say they aren't that smart. But you can't shoot unarmed people for loitering and name calling.


The OP said the teens came around the counter and actually laid hands on the clerk. That is VERY aggressive behavior and is clearly a sign they are becoming more and more emboldened by the lack of resistance.
That's a different story. I think in every state you have the right to protect your business, property, and person and coming behind the counter is seen as threatening in every state.


When the James Gang tried to rob a bank in a small town in MN (I think) they were shot to pieces by the various small business owners who were not about to let the criminals run the show and take their money.
That was also the 1800's when people were typically shot on the streets for arguments. And we also got tired of living like that. I would like to think that we haven't forgotten those lessons. Again, no one is taking away your right to protect life and property. You've always had it, and no one has ever suggested taking it away.


People don't commit crimes against people they think can and will defend themselves.
That's rediculous. You are trying to apply personal feelings about some young punks with crime in general. People commit crimes for all kinds of reasons, in all kinds of situations full well knowing the consequences and prepared to counter act them to get away with it.


Laws in NY, in my humble opinion, leave the law-abiding citizen at a huge disadvantage to the criminal. While some may choose to leave themselves in such a condition, the government should have no place in limiting that guaranteed right.

If someone breaks into your home of business or threatens you or your family (or any other person) with bodily harm, go ahead...pull the trigger. But if you shoot some unarmed punk kid in the back just because he called you "old man" and knocked over your candy display, you should go to jail for the rest of your life.

Guns are not for conflict resolution, revenge or retribution just to save face. They are for killing people.

There are times where it is justified, and then there are times where the person holding the gun was just waiting for an excuse.

I'm not saying it's an easy situation to deal with, but you can't just make up the law based on personal feelings. The law gives you rights. Just use them correctly.

By the way, shooting someone, killing them and living with it, is not as easy as you think it's going to be. Ask any Veteran who's willing to talk about it. And they are in wars. The very idea of it should give you pause on some level. It should be seen as a last resort. Not the first one.

It's a screwed country when cops celebrate 30 years on the job without having to take a life, and citizens are walking around looking for an excuse to do so.

[essentialed]

At this point it doesn't appear you understand my posts at all. I have never advocated shooting teens for loitering. So, let's just call it a day and let the OP get back to how they wish to protect their business. Best wishes to you. We can certainly agree that having to use a weapon is, in both our minds, the last resort and an unpleasant one to consider, let alone be forced to do. God bless.

[billbenson]

and citizens are walking around looking for an excuse to do so.

I agree with most of what you have said, Harold, but I think that one is a bit of a stretch. I think most law abiding people who carry guns aren't interested in an excuse to use it.

I've said this before, but IMO people should go through a much more rigorous training to carry a firearm outside their house. I'm talking about a year or more of shooting at popup targets as well as class training every week. Most people just won't take the time to do this. I think it would weed out a lot of the people who shouldn't be carrying weapons. I see this constantly in martial arts. Very few people will take the years of training to get to a decent level of competence. Most drop out in 3 months or less.

[Harold Mansfield]

At this point it doesn't appear you understand my posts at all. I have never advocated shooting teens for loitering. So, let's just call it a day and let the OP get back to how they wish to protect their business. Best wishes to you. We can certainly agree that having to use a weapon is, in both our minds, the last resort and an unpleasant one to consider, let alone be forced to do. God bless.

You'll have to forgive me. I meant no disrespect. I get a little animated when people start talking about rights that they never had being taken away, while ignoring rights that they used to have that have actually been lost or are being trampled on as we speak.

Sure, we've let the "right to bear arms as part of a regulated militia' slide to mean "right to bear arms no matter what, under any circumstances, by pretty much anyone". Some have even bastardized it to mean "against a tyrannical government", which it doesn't. But when you start talking about when you can and can't use weapons against people...that's not in there. At that point you are bound by the law.

It's not a right just because you personally think you should be able to do it based on how you were raised, or what ever religion you worship. And that's where the argument goes off the rails and normally where I would stop discussing such things on the forum.

As you can see it's a very hot topic with me. I'm a veteran, ex Military Police and I like the 2nd Amendment the way it is. Limited, and specific. But everyone isn't capable of the responsibility. And I'm sure even the founders relieved the nutcases in the villages of their weapons.

[cwillmoth]

Move to Texas where Gun owners all carry guns and dont have to worry about situations like this.

Other than that I would just say call the cops and file a complaint so the next time it happens they go straight to jail no questions about it.

[michaelstark61]

hire a security guard
replace your CCTV camera with the better one.
show some courage in front of them this night scare them.

[bfg9000]

I assume you have some sort of security system like ADT? I know my keypad has a panic setting that will silently call the police. It may be worth moving the keypad closer to the register so John could just punch a couple buttons and help would be on the way.

[Paul]

I agree the panic button idea may be the best. no need to fumble with a phone that the kids could take from him anyway.