What is copyright law for selling a product with a picture of anothe product

[pkaiken]

Hi, I am selling repair guides that show you how to repair electronic devices. I am going in competition with another company that also sells repair guides with labels over the picture of the device that is being repaired. What is the copyright law in using an image of, say, an iPhone that is disassembled? Can apple sue me for using the image of a disassembled iPhone in my product? Or can they only sue me if I use their logo in the image? Also, can I use a very small picture of an iPhone the corner showing what it "looks like" not disassembled? Its very hard to find info on copyright laws for using photos of devices that everyone has. I know you can't use pictures of artwork, literature, or even cars without some kind of permission. Does electronic devices count? Thanks for your response.

[turboguy]

My feelings are that as long as you took the photo and did not have anything that was both incorrect and derogatory the odds of them suing you would be about zero. If you used a stock photo or someone else's photo that could be a problem. If you said something like look what a piece of junk this connector is when it was really up to industry standards that could bring some legal action but for what you are talking about there should be no problems at all.

[Harold Mansfield]

First things first, anyone can sue you for anything. Even if it won't stand up, many times just the threat is enough to make a little guy fold because he can't afford to defend himself. So best to stay clear of drawing attention to yourself when in doubt.


Hi, I am selling repair guides that show you how to repair electronic devices. I am going in competition with another company that also sells repair guides with labels over the picture of the device that is being repaired. What is the copyright law in using an image of, say, an iPhone that is disassembled?

Yes and maybe. Even if you take the image yourself, Apple is very protective of their stuff. Technically they don't seem to want anyone repairing their things but them. So could I see them causing a stink saying you're showing proprietary information about how their product is built? Maybe.

On their guidelines page is says :


1. Endorsement or Sponsorship: Apple does not support the use of its logos, company names, product names, or images of Apple products by other parties in marketing, promotional or advertising materials as their use may create the perception that Apple endorses or sponsors the product, service or promotion.


Can apple sue me for using the image of a disassembled iPhone in my product? Or can they only sue me if I use their logo in the image?
Yes, they can sue you for using their logo without permission.


Also, can I use a very small picture of an iPhone the corner showing what it "looks like" not disassembled?
Maybe. Most product companies have promotional photos that are free to use for press and such. For a layman, cheap way of guidance I'd look at sites like Amazon who sells Apple accessories and look at how creative they are at describing and presenting their product.


Its very hard to find info on copyright laws for using photos of devices that everyone has. I know you can't use pictures of artwork, literature, or even cars without some kind of permission. Does electronic devices count? Thanks for your response.

As a rule if you didn't take it or have permission it's not OK to use. As I stated above most companies have press packs and promo images available, most for download on their sites. That doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want with them, Usually guidelines are stated.

Here's a link to their guidelines. Should answer all of your questions:
Apple - Legal - Copyright and Trademark Guidelines (http://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html)

[nealrm]

There are two issues here, a trademark issue and a copyright issue. The copyright applies to the use of the photo, not what is in the photo. If you took the photo no problem. If someone else took the photos you need to either have purchased the copyright of have a licence that states you can use it in this manner. On a purchase, the contract must specifically state the copyright is transferred to you. If it doesn't state that clearly, you are not buying the copyright.

Using a likeness of an I-phone in any manner that implies that there is a relationship between you and Apple when one doesn't exist, is a trademark infringement. The reason you are having problems finding information is because you need to be looking under trademark infringement not copyright infringement.

[Business Attorney]

I don't disagree with anything that turboguy, Harold or nealrm said but I want to clarify a point on the copyright issue. You say "I know you can't use pictures of artwork, literature, or even cars without some kind of permission." That is only partially true. It is more true for artwork and much less true for cars, but in both cases there are uses that fall under the category "fair use."

If you take a picture of a well known sculpture and try to sell large full color high resolution prints of your photo as a standalone product, you are almost certainly violating the artist's copyright. If you are writing an article on things to do in City X and you recommend visiting the sculpture and accompany the article with a small relatively low resolution photo of the sculpture, odds are that would be deemed fair use. However, fair use is not a bright line test, so there is always some judgment involved.

And, as Harold pointed out, the owner of the copyright could certainly sue and try to argue that the use was not fair use.

Generally, copyright protection for useful objects is much less that it is for creative works. For example, I am sure a studio does NOT try to get permission to depict every car that appears in a movie or TV show. They are not playing off the creative design elements, they are just depicting a car as a car.

It seems that your use of a disassembled iPhone is much more like the depiction of a car in a movie, even though the fact that you are focusing on a single product is a difference. It is hard for me to believe that simply showing your own photo of the phone as a functional object in your repair guide would be found to violate an Apple copyright.

As Harold and nealrm both mentioned, the copyright issue is very different from the trademark issue. You need to very carefully follow the Apple trademark guidelines or you may find Apple breathing down your neck.

[turboguy]

I didn't say this in my post but one of the things that made me feel it wasn't a problem is that YouTube and the Internet are both filled with videos and articles with photos showing how to replace a screen or do other repairs on an iPhone and I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble over it. There are also tons of postings and articles on how to fix most anything that the respective manufacturer seems to have no issue with.

[Harold Mansfield]

I didn't say this in my post but one of the things that made me feel it wasn't a problem is that YouTube and the Internet are both filled with videos and articles with photos showing how to replace a screen or do other repairs on an iPhone and I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble over it. There are also tons of postings and articles on how to fix most anything that the respective manufacturer seems to have no issue with.

You used 2 key words/phrases. "I've never seen", and "Seems to have no issue". You really don't know. I don't think tear down videos are the problem. Using Apple's imagery and logo are. I think if you take your own images of a broken down iPhone you're OK. If you use Apple's iPhone images you are not. If you use Gizmodo's iPhone images without permission you are still not in the clear, because you didn't take them therefore you don't own them.

David can probably clear that part up though.

[Business Attorney]

You used 2 key words/phrases. "I've never seen", and "Seems to have no issue". You really don't know. I don't think tear down videos are the problem. Using Apple's imagery and logo are. I think if you take your own images of a broken down iPhone you're OK. If you use Apple's iPhone images you are not. If you use Gizmodo's iPhone images without permission you are still not in the clear, because you didn't take them therefore you don't own them.

David can probably clear that part up though.

That is correct. I think he was asking about documenting the process with his own photos and was simply concerned about the fact that the subject matter itself might be subject to copyright protection.

Using someone else's photos without permission is always a problem.

[pkaiken]

There are several products out that show a disassembled device, many of them not even covering up the logo in their photos. They have been selling these products for years. Screw mat.com makes a million in revenue a year selling repair mats with iPhones on them. They have no disclaimer on their product either. I at least have a disclaimer saying that "apple is a trademark of Apple Inc and I have no affiliation with them". Is that good enough?

[pkaiken]

Re sent this with quote

[pkaiken]

That is correct. I think he was asking about documenting the process with his own photos and was simply concerned about the fact that the subject matter itself might be subject to copyright protection.

Using someone else's photos without permission is always a problem.

Thank you for your time. I am curious, how will someone know you are using a photo from someone else? If you take a picture of the grand canyon and sell a calendar, how will you know that that photo is not someone else photo of the grand canyon? What if you take a picture at the same angle and focal length to get the same image? If its impossible to know what is your photo and what is someone else photo since it is the exact same object, angle, and lighting, how can someone sue another in this situation? If that were possible, I would take pictures of common items and then sue people online who have photos of the same object! I would be rich! How do you know if my photos of a disassembled phone is not another one's photo if you are taking exact photos of the same object at the same angle? Also, How can apple sue someone over a picture of their phone? They would have to sue millions of people who do selfies in their mirror showing the apple logo in their photo as well as sue every single product review of the iPhone, every singe video of a drop test of their or teardown video. The trademark lawyers would be rich by suing MILLIONS of people on youtube alone, not including Instagram and Facebook and EVERY tech web site in the world!

Correct me if I am wrong, I need your advice, please. Thanks

[pkaiken]

It seems that your use of a disassembled iPhone is much more like the depiction of a car in a movie, even though the fact that you are focusing on a single product is a difference. It is hard for me to believe that simply showing your own photo of the phone as a functional object in your repair guide would be found to violate an Apple copyright.

As Harold and nealrm both mentioned, the copyright issue is very different from the trademark issue. You need to very carefully follow the Apple trademark guidelines or you may find Apple breathing down your neck.

So would it be okay to cover up the disassembled device with labels because I do show the iPhone disassembled but it is heavily covered up with labels and words showing the different parts (like an anatomy chart). Very little of the phone is showing unaltered.

[Freelancier]

First things first, anyone can sue you for anything.
I agree with this. What I don't agree with is being afraid of being sued. It'll happen or it won't. Being afraid doesn't change that.

So... that said (written?), don't use their logo to promote your products, don't steal other people's pictures. Make sure it's very clear at the top that you are not affiliated with Apple and that they have no relationship with you. Then do what you want to do. Worst case, you get a threatening letter from their attorneys. They'll never go for the lawsuit first; they'd rather just scare you into doing whatever they want. Don't ignore the letter, though, that's not going to make them go away.

IANAL! Don't let a free forum be an alternative to getting legal advice from an attorney near you.

[pkaiken]

I agree with this. What I don't agree with is being afraid of being sued. It'll happen or it won't. Being afraid doesn't change that.

So... that said (written?), don't use their logo to promote your products, don't steal other people's pictures. Make sure it's very clear at the top that you are not affiliated with Apple and that they have no relationship with you. Then do what you want to do. Worst case, you get a threatening letter from their attorneys. They'll never go for the lawsuit first; they'd rather just scare you into doing whatever they want. Don't ignore the letter, though, that's not going to make them go away.

IANAL! Don't let a free forum be an alternative to getting legal advice from an attorney near you.

Thanks for the response. I'm just not getting all of this. What i am trying to understand is, can I use an image of a disassembled phone (or any device) and a small picture of the phone itself in the corner of the repair guide and sell these? I am only getting vague responses saying I can get sued for the fact that anything can be sued. I am confused because my product is very similar to other products on the market that have not gotten sued. Also, there are countless web sites and videos with disassembled devices. If the possibility of getting sued was high, these web sites would have been taken down by now. For example, ifixit.com tears down EVERY electronic device and shows logos freely. The closest they got to getting sued by apple is that they did a teardown of a pre-released apple TV and apple banned their app from being in their app store. Nothing legal about the photos of the device itself happened. So does anyone know laws pertaining to images? Giving me the response "anyone can sue you for any reason" is not an answer. Obviously thats not true because no one would go into business if that were the case (or lawyers would just sue a store simply because their cart make noises, or they don't like the color green, or whatever). So you can't just sue for "anything", there has to be a valid, logical and legal reason to sue. Even then, disclaimers make it very hard to sue someone if something was disclosed clearly.

Bottom line is, WHAT IS THE LAW WHEN IT COMES TO IMAGES OF A DEVICE BEING PLACED ON A PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD TO INSTRUCT YOU HOW TO DISASSEMBLE IT???? The only real answer I can conclude is that you can do anything you want with an image of a device as long as you do not use it to deceive people by misrepresenting it or confuse people or use their logo in a confusing or deceptive manner. Otherwise you can do anything you want with an image of a device. Second, using an image of an object that another person took is technically not wrong in that there is no way they can prove its their photo. If they take an photo of an iPhone on a white background, anyone can take that same picture in the exact way, there's not copyright on an image that anyone can easily reproduce. (Again, if there was, I could sue everyone who takes a photo of an iPhone on a white background by claiming I did it first by copyrighting it). Finally, I have every intention of speaking to a business attorney about these issues.

Please correct anything I have said, just don't say "anyone can so you for anything" anymore. That's not an answer. Thanks.

[Freelancier]

So you can't just sue for "anything", there has to be a valid, logical and legal reason to sue.
This is wrong. You can indeed sue or be sued for "anything". The question is whether it will survive the first contact with the judge, which could take months before that happens and in the meantime, you're thinking about the lawsuit day and night. Been there, done that, I'll wait for the movie of it next time.

However, that doesn't mean that you will be sued for something.

What everyone is telling you is that if you take your own pictures and don't show the logo and load it up with disclaimers, you have a good chance of not doing something objectionable.

[turboguy]

With a company like Apple and what you are doing I would be 99% certain if they ever objected to your use of the photos or photos with their logo showing the action they would take is to send you a cease and desist order requiring you to take down the offending photos. Now if you refused then they might go for monetary damages.

My thinking is that the odds are 99 to 1 that you would never hear a peep from them
In the case you did the odds are 99 to 1 that they would do no more than ask to have the photos removed.

If I were wanting to do what you want to do I would do it and not lose a minutes sleep.

[pkaiken]

What everyone is telling you is that if you take your own pictures and don't show the logo and load it up with disclaimers, you have a good chance of not doing something objectionable.

Okay, thanks, That clears up my misunderstanding.

[pkaiken]

With a company like Apple and what you are doing I would be 99% certain if they ever objected to your use of the photos or photos with their logo showing the action they would take is to send you a cease and desist order requiring you to take down the offending photos. Now if you refused then they might go for monetary damages.

My thinking is that the odds are 99 to 1 that you would never hear a peep from them
In the case you did the odds are 99 to 1 that they would do no more than ask to have the photos removed.

If I were wanting to do what you want to do I would do it and not lose a minutes sleep.

YES YES thank you for this. That is what I needed to know

[Business Attorney]

With a company like Apple and what you are doing I would be 99% certain if they ever objected to your use of the photos or photos with their logo showing the action they would take is to send you a cease and desist order requiring you to take down the offending photos. Now if you refused then they might go for monetary damages.

With companies other than stock photo agencies like Getty Images and Masterfile, and a few trolls whose business plan is to catch people violating copyrights or trademarks, the goal is to stop the infringement, not collect damages, so the first step is almost always a cease and desist letter simply demanding that you remove the infringing work. So I agree with Turboguy that the odds of being sued by Apple are virtually zero if you are prepared to accede to any demand to simply take down offending material.

You also ask how someone can know if you use the exact same picture. It would be nearly impossible to take the exact same picture, pixel for pixel. There is software that can scan the Internet for matching pictures and compare both the image and the metadata. Just search for Getty and Masterfile and "lawsuit" or "damages" and read what you can find.

The answer is that if someone is lazy enough to steal someone else's photos, they deserve what they get. Don't do it.

[pkaiken]

You also ask how someone can know if you use the exact same picture. It would be nearly impossible to take the exact same picture, pixel for pixel. There is software that can scan the Internet for matching pictures and compare both the image and the metadata. Just search for Getty and Masterfile and "lawsuit" or "damages" and read what you can find.

The answer is that if someone is lazy enough to steal someone else's photos, they deserve what they get. Don't do it.


Thanks for the reply. Are you referring to using an image unmodified online or are you talking about even a heavily modified image even in print, that can be "scanned" for pixel placement to determine its the same image? I see a lot of web sites use images of, say, and iPhone. You know, the front facing image of the iPhone at the home screen. They all look the same. Is there copyright issues here or did all these 1000's of web sites get permission to use the iPhone image, including websites hostile to apples brand?

What are the copy right laws for using an image of, lets say a hamburger from a web site and you cut it out and add crazy colors over it and use it in your project. Does this violate copyrights?

Thanks in advance for your response.