About Job Searching and Resume Sites

[jamestl2]

I've been a bit busy over the past few months looking for an actual job, since I graduated really (not that I'm really dying to get one, I'd like to have spent more time developing my business, but I still need it for reasons such as immediate income, health insurance benefits, moving out soon, etc.)

Here's what I've done so far off the top of my head:
My Cousin put in a good referral for me at the company he works for (Epic.com) and an Aunt of mine also told me of a good place that might be able to use me. Unfortunately, neither of those places were looking for someone with my specific skillsets (despite the "networking referrals").

I've sent out my resume to several "resume sites" including MilwaukeeJobs, Yahoo HotJobs, SnagaJob, and Monster. And as for actual listings I've found on these resume sites, (I probably sent out about a hundred responses to Milwaukeejobs, and probably about 10 to 20 more per each of the other sites) and NONE of them have even bothered to acknowledge that I applied to their available positions, let alone contacted me for something to even consider me by (you know, like a personal email or an interview request or something).

OK I shouldn't say that's completely accurate, so far two companies have found my resume via HotJobs, however those two just happen to be scam organizations that have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted on my resume or what skills I have to offer (one of them was specifically asking me to collect money from targeted individuals and transfer the funds to a Swedish bank account, crazy!).

So far, the most luck I've had (concerning a real job, not including the freelance work I've found) was probably with Craigslist, but this still isn't saying much. The posters there HAVE responded to my replies about a few specific jobs they had available, and one of them even asked for an interview which happened a little while ago. However I still haven't been hired and the postings on CL are really too few and thin. (People only really list postings under the web/info design section about once a week or so, and even then, the positions aren't usually what fall under my qualifications.)

It's been a bit frustrating since I've been intently looking for months and haven't found anything yet. I don't know if it's the bad economy or if I'm just presenting my self wrong, or if I'm even looking in the right places or something.

Anyway, I'd like to ask what you guys have done to find your first "official" job, and how exactly you went about it. Where would you recommend looking online that actually produces results? Or if you have any tips, stories you'd like to share, that'd be great too.

Thanks

[Steve B]

It depends on your education and experience. If you have a degree and a few years experience in your specific field - a professional search firm is going to be your best bet. If you aren't in the category above - I don't know what the latest methods are for finding a job.

I'm sure the econony is making it tough to find a job. You may have to be willing to move to where the work is.

[jamestl2]

I have a BA in Information Resources from UW Milwaukee. (And I've been primarily looking in the field of web development for the work.)

The story I mentioned about my Cousin referring me, the job's actually located in Madison, WI (I live a bit North of Milwaukee). So relocation shouldn't be too big of an issue, since I'll be moving out eventually anyway. Just want to make sure I can actually afford to move out before I do (in case the job doesn't quite fall through or something).

[Blessed]

The best luck my husband has had in finding work is to hook up with a head-hunter. They have picked his resume up off of Monster and CareerBuilder and have gone from there. Of course he is in management, with lots of specialized experience in manufacturing... but I'll simply second what Steve said - if you can find a placement firm to work with - you might have better luck actually landing something.

Without seeing your resume/cover letter/jobs you are applying for etc... that's the best insight I can give :)

Having been in the hiring chair before though - I will tell you that the people who didn't get a response from us were the ones who were applying without having all of the qualifications we were looking for. Also since this is your first "official" job you might need to simply broaden your horizons a bit and consider taking a job that isn't exactly what you would like to get into right now - just to get some industry time and experience built up.

Hope that helps!

[vangogh]

James it sounds like everything you're doing is the right thing to do. You may just have to keep trying and trying. Don't get down. You only need one company to say yes.

You can keep looking for more places to do the same and I'd also keep working on your resume. Try improving it a little each week. Maybe try something a little different with one version and see if it works to get you more responses. If the jobs you're applying for vary a little you can create different resume/cover letter for each type of job you're applying for.


Also since this is your first "official" job you might need to simply broaden your horizons a bit and consider taking a job that isn't exactly what you would like to get into right now - just to get some industry time and experience built up.

Yep. Don't stop applying for the exact job you want, but also try to apply for some you feel more likely to get, the jobs that match your skillset as close as possible.

You're in that catch22 phase where employers want experience, but you can't get that experience without a job. You really have to keep trying and then trying again. Widen your job search, work on improving your resume and cover letter. You can send both to me if you want and I'll be happy to take a look and offer suggestions.

You can also hire someone to rewrite your resume and give you some basic templates for cover letters, though keep in mind cover letters work best if you can tailor them to the specific job you're applying for.

[jamestl2]

OK, so what exactly is a "Search Firm" or "Placement Firm"? Something similar to the resume sites I mentioned? I'm not familiar with the term.

My family members actually suggested to me (well, my Mother specifically, because it's how she got her previous job) that I should apply for positions even if I don't meet the exact requirements. I haven't done so yet, only applied for positions I could honestly qualify for, but by doing so she states that it broadens my horizons and could become a learning experience. It's something I'm not to sure about, despite meeting 95% of the qualifications.

For example, one place might say they want someone with five years of HTML programming experience and extensive knowledge of Dreamweaver Web Design. I'd inform them that I already have at least three years of writing in XHTML which isn't even a programming language and that Dreamweaver isn't even necessary for proper web design. (Well I wouldn't say that specifically, I'd hint at the fact that it's a markup language, and I've already coded plenty of templates in XHTML and CSS before without trouble.) Anyway that's why I don't think I'd feel comfortable fudging on the application in such a manner.

I do realize I am in that catch-22 situation without real world experience (well actually, I was employed previously over the summer, but it had nothing to do with what I'm looking for now). And freelance work and actually coding files doesn't seem to count for much in the "experience" department.

I think I did a good job on my job papers, but I really don't know for 100% sure, so here's what I've been sending out. (Apparently my files were just a tad to big to upload here, so I put them on my server space instead.)

Concerning my resume:
http://www.jameslewitzke.com/Lewitzke - Resume.doc

I just kept it short and sweet, enough info to fill the page, keeping it at one.

And with the Cover Letter I wrote:
http://www.jameslewitzke.com/Lewitzke - Cover Letter.doc

This is the basic template I've used, I bolded the dynamic parts that generally refer to whichever company I was applying too. Of course I'll edit and add info where appropriate when necessary, but this was the basic template I used whenever I had to attach a cover letter specifically with the resume, or email the potential employer directly.

Again, I don't know if these are the best they could be, but they outline pretty much what I do and what I can provide to the employer, but thanks for offering the help. Just not sure what I can add to it without making them sound to wordy.

[Steve B]

A search firm (or Headhunter) is a professional agency that takes on candidates that have a marketable set of education, skills, and experience and finds them a job in their field. They already have relationships with various companies and in many cases are under contract to find them employees. When a company hires one of their candidates, they get paid a fee by the hiring company (typically 20-30% of the person's first year's salary).

I was a Human Resource Manager for many years. Whenever we had a higher level job available (i.e. we needed an experienced engineer) we would use the search firms to do the recruiting for us. They typically won't waste their time on the lower level jobs however (they want 25% of 100,000 versus 25% of $35,000).

We never used a search firm for an entry level IT position.

I'd also be glad to take a look at your resume.

My general advice on the resume is to keep it simple and in standard format. You'll be lucky if it gets looked at for 5 seconds when it's being screened - so, if they have a hard time figuring out if you completed your degree or not - it will get dumped (at least that's what I did). Of course, if you have the qualifications they are looking for, then it it will be looked at very carefully (make sure about 5 people proofread it).

[Spider]

...Anyway, I'd like to ask what you guys have done to find your first "official" job, and how exactly you went about it...My first official job - right out of college - was a rather long time ago - pre-internet! pre-personal computer! pre-electronic calculator, even! Still, the system I adopted worked then and for my entire employment career.

I generally ignored the advertisements and simply wrote to the companies I wanted to work for, and directly (as in "Dear Mr. Smith...") to the person who would be my boss if I got a job with that company.

My first résumé was the list of subjects I studied at school, the marks I had achieved and the qualifications I had earned - a glorified school report, in fact. My first ever covering letter, was equally short, saying more of what I wanted to do with my life than what I had done.

After that, I used the exact same system, only now I had experience to add to my résumé, and my covering letters included one or two specific things I had accomplished for the previous employer. But these were always sent to companies I wanted to work for and directly, by name, to whoever would be my immediate superior, without regard for whether they were advertising or not.

I hope this helps.

[vangogh]

that I should apply for positions even if I don't meet the exact requirements.

Absolutely. Don't look at those requirements as absolutes. Some companies will treat them that way, but others won't.

Remember that the purpose of a resume isn't to get you a job. It's just to get you to the next step, either a phone call or an interview. For every job you apply to there are lots of other people applying as well. The only thing your resume/cover letter is trying to do is make that first cut. Don't put anything in it that makes it easy for someone to eliminate you from the pile. Make sure spelling and grammar is perfect.


For example, one place might say they want someone with five years of HTML programming experience and extensive knowledge of Dreamweaver Web Design. I'd inform them that I already have at least three years of writing in XHTML which isn't even a programming language and that Dreamweaver isn't even necessary for proper web design.

Never mention things like this. Even if you do it nicely it's not going to help. To the person hiring you it's completely irrelevant whether html is a programming language or markup language. All you want to do is let them know you know html.

If you don't have DreamWeaver experience don't mention you don't have any or that DreamWeaver is not the best program. If DreamWeaver is listed as a requirement and you tell me in any way why it's not the right program then you're resume is going right into the garbage. Don't try to justify anything. If you don't have a skill don't mention it or find a way to highlight something else that turns the negative into a positive. You could highlight that you hand code and can wok with a variety of design and development programs.

I've even listed things on resumes that I didn't technically know, but knew I'd be able to learn in a day. Realistically if you did get an interview for a job that wanted you to use DreamWeaver you could probably learn how to use it between the time you get the interview and the interview itself.

That brings up another point. If you keep seeing the same things listed as skills an employer wants you to have then take it upon yourself to learn those skills. That's part of your current job as a job seeker. You can purchase a student edition of DreamWeaver for a lot less than the program normally costs and start learning it. Then in a few weeks you'll feel confident listing it on your resume.

I downloaded your resume and will take a look. I'll send you an email with thoughts. If you haven't heard anything from in a couple of days send me an email to remind me. I tried downloading your cover letter, but I got a server error.

[jamestl2]

Strange that I've never heard of headhunter agency before. So basically they promote their members to the most logical positions available that they can find? And they do a good job at it too? Are these agencies global, or do they only cater to a certain region?

Fredrick, I considered performing something similar, but didn't the companies usually ask how you've heard of them, if not through advertisements? Or did you even use the ads at all when writing to the companies?

And were those companies that hired you actively looking for work? (Had "Now Hiring" signs in the window, posted regularly in classifieds, etc.). There were a couple of times that I marketed myself to a company or two without this being the case. I just don't want to write to companies that aren't actively hiring, and come across as either pushy or, for a lack of better word, spamming, them with my skills.

Steve, the cover letter just had a missing space in the file name when I pasted the URL in (Whoops). Anyway, I fixed the link.



Never mention things like this.


I know I wouldn't mention those sort of things. Maybe I should have phrased it a bit differently. I meant that's what I'd be thinking in the back of my mind when I read qualifications like that, and I'd be uncomfortable informing them about the way they worded who they're looking for. (Which is why I haven't applied to positions like these.)

I actually do have a bit of DW experience, with the student version. Back when I was first getting into the whole web development world (late 2006), I believed that a "Website creation tool" was necessary to create the pages I wanted, (I really didn't know what I was doing back then :D), so I purchased DW. Granted I didn't enjoy it very much and I eventually learned to code by hand, I still had maybe a month or two's experience worth under my belt with the tool.

Concerning the skills, for example, many of the positions that I do see available (a lot of them, probably around 50% or so) are looking for people with ASP.NET knowledge (apparently it's more common in a corporate environment). I'm not very familiar with the ASP.NET framework, the languages required to power it behind the scenes (VB.NET, C#, or whichever one they want), and I don't think it's something I can learn in a day or two. That's not to say I'm not curious to learn about it down the road eventually in a few years or whenever (I am actually). But again, I doubt learning ASP.NET in a day or two is something that can be realistically done.

Thanks again about the files too; and the CL should be working now.

[billbenson]

I don't know that headhunters are the best today. I found a job in the past with one, but I don't know that they are effective unless you are looking for 100k plus jobs.

Off and on, over the past ten plus years I have used Monster and others. I did get a job off of monster 10 years ago, but it was the worst job I ever had and I lasted 3 months.

BTW I was looking for technical sales positions as that's my background.

I haven't tried to look for a job in 4 or 5 years, but here is what I would do:

I would find companies that you would like to work for. I would research their products extensively. I would submit a resume exactly targeted at them. Just play the numbers game after that doing the same thing company after company.

Remember that companies use filters to screen resumes because they get to many for personal review. When you submit a resume use SEO sort of techniques so keywords such as degree information, product knowledge, or whatever would be likely to be searched for by the company are in your resume. Put your resume in the text of an email to the company as well as an attachment.

Looking for jobs outside your area is hard. Companies don't fly you to interview you like in the past. They look in a local pool. For that reason, the address you use in your resume is important. That's a difficult one to overcome if you live in LA and apply for a job in New Orleans (as an example).

I suspect most companies have so many resumes that they don't bother much with the monster.com's. They might put jobs up there, but you are really just submitting a resume that posted a job. By then, they have hundreds of resumes or more when you see the job on monster. You want to try to get on a short list before the job becomes available.

I've never done the above, so I could be wrong, but I think that today that's the sort of thing you need to do. Go out and sell yourself.

Me as a web sales guy, I'd write a web site selling their products before I even approached them. I'd walk in the door with a bunch of leads or orders and say "hey, hire me". Who are they going to here, the guy that says I want a job, or the guy with a bunch of leads in his hand who says "I did this because I want to work here!"

[Spider]

...Fredrick, I considered performing something similar, but didn't the companies usually ask how you've heard of them, if not through advertisements? Or did you even use the ads at all when writing to the companies?...How I heard of them? I was approaching companies I wanted to work for - top companies in my industry. They were public companies, and everyone in the industry - and many far beyond - had heard of them. This method allows you to contact only the best companies in your field. I can't imagine an interviewer at Microsoft asking an interviewee how they heard of them, eh? So, no, I didn't use the ads at all when determining to whom I would write.


...And were those companies that hired you actively looking for work? (Had "Now Hiring" signs in the window, posted regularly in classifieds, etc.). There were a couple of times that I marketed myself to a company or two without this being the case. I just don't want to write to companies that aren't actively hiring, and come across as either pushy or, for a lack of better word, spamming, them with my skills...I was approaching the Microsofts and the Ciscos of my industry. The best companies are always looking for work - and getting a steady stream of it.

Also, I never thought of it as "marketing myself." I simply said I wanted to work for a great company like theirs, and would welcome an interview, if there was position likely to come available in the near future. (Managers deal with the future. HR deals with the present.)

Re: writing to a company that isn't actively hiring. A top grade company is always hiring. Managers are overworked - they never have enough staff. Plus, do you think the manager to whom you would write doesn't have at least one person on his staff that he could do without? Managers look forward to the future. They are constantly thinking and planning about next month, next year. If someone appears on the scene that they know would be good for them to hire, do you really think they would say, "Oh, sorry! We aren't hiring right now!" That's what HR staff say, because they aren't looking to the future - which is why you don't want to write to HR.

And, if you were a manager who is overworked, understaffed, and intended to grow his department, would you rather hire someone who is pushy, or someone who is a wallflower?!

[Spider]

James - I think the method Bill described above is the 21st.Century equivalent of what I did.

Best of luck!

[vangogh]

James your cover letter is working now. I just downloaded it. Again remind me in a day or two if you haven't heard anything from me.

As far as ASP, etc are concerned, year, it seems more often used in the corporate world. Learning that side of things is a decision you'll have to make. It probably isn't going to help you find a job right away, but keep it in mind for future jobs. You could though run out and buy a couple books on ASP and at least gain enough familiarity with it to list it on a resume.

I'll agree with the approaches both Bill and Frederick described above too. Ideally you'd find a company you want to work for and research them thoroughly and then target a resume and cover letter specifically to them.

Why not get creative and build a resume site? It'll give you a chance to display your skills instead of listing them in a resume. I know you have a site, but why not create one specifically as a resume site?

Know that a lot of your job search is going to come down to persistence. Looking for a job usually isn't much fun. There's going to be more rejection than acceptance. You have to keep at it and keep improving you resume and cover letter.

[Spider]

A side issue that I see upsetting many job applicants - either for advertised jobs or a direct approach - is the question of getting replies -- "They didn't even have the courtesy to reply!"

So what! They are under no obligation to you to acknowledge receipt of your application, and you have no right to expect one. If they wrote to you specifically and offered you a job or invited you for an interview, a reply to your response would be in order. However, you responding to a general invitation to apply, or you taking it upon yourself to tell them you are available for an interview, creates no obligation on their part.

IOW, don't add to your anguish by feeling hurt over not receiving a reply. If they want to talk to you, they will reply. If they don't want to talk to you, you don't need to hear from them. Move on!

[Spider]

I'll throw in this story - because I think it is a fun story, even if it wouldn't happen quite like this in every case.

Arthur wanted to work for SuperConductor Co. He wrote to the owner/president of the company and asked for an interview. He received no reply. Every month, Arthur wrote again, sometimes just repeating his previous letter, sometimes updating it with new things he had learned, classes taken, etc. Sometimes the company replied, mostly not.

But Arthur continued to write every month. After 18 months, the owner/president's secretary called Arthur and set up an appointment for her boss to meet Arthur at a local coffee shop.

Arthur arrived early and waited. The owner/president arrived, walked over to Arthur, dropped a folder on the table which contained every one of Arthur's letters, and said,"If I hire you, will you stop writing these letters?"

Arthur said he would. He was told to report for work the following Monday morning. 8 o'clock sharp!

[Patrysha]

Honestly, if it took 18 months for a company I wanted to work for as an employee to realize how valuable I would be as a member of their team...I probably wouldn't want to work for them.

Unless there was some sort of special prestige attached to working with that particular firm...but I can't think of one...

[Spider]

Honestly, if it took 18 months for a company I wanted to work for as an employee to realize how valuable I would be as a member of their team...I probably wouldn't want to work for them.
Unless there was some sort of special prestige attached to working with that particular firm...but I can't think of one...Really, I think there is prestige, or lack of it, for every company one works for.

Which would look better on a résumé?...

1. 5 years senior software engineer with Microsoft, Redmond, WA, or

2. 5 years senior software engineer with Plinky-Dink Software, St.Francisville, LA

[jamestl2]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone.

Is there any really big difference between how you deal with larger companies as opposed to small-businesses? Of the ways described about how you've found various work, I was thinking about trying this approach: Since I'm primarily looking for a position in the field of Web Development, perhaps I could search through various companies' websites and determine whether I think I could improve there, design, code, etc. (I wouldn't say anything directly like "your design sucks" or "your code could be better", as it's all subjective.) I'd look to find some way to tell them about how much I'd enjoy modifying and probably updating their sites when they need to.

The problem I see with this approach is though they might already be satisfied with the way their sites run, or they don't feel they need any design suggestions. I mean if they're not actively looking for someone, why would they want someone such as me? If the above is a good idea, what would be the best way to approach this? Basically, how can I communicate that I'd like to work for them without spamming them via my services or wasting their time as such?

Plus, I'm not really sure who I'd like to work for. There's lots of companies out there, some with some really involved code and behind-the-scens scripting, which I don't know the details of.



How I heard of them? I was approaching companies I wanted to work for - top companies in my industry. They were public companies, and everyone in the industry - and many far beyond - had heard of them.


OK, I actually meant how you heard of the job positions themselves, not necessarily the companies. But you explain that later anyway, so thanks.

I understand what you mean too about the companies not replying. It just confuses me that after the sheer number of personal letters and resumes I sent out, not one of those had bothered to do so. Especially since a majority of the ones I've seen are still "posting their want ads" and actively searching for and apparently haven't found anyone to work on the job. But again, I realize that they have no obligation to acknowledge my effort, and so I'll just continue to look elsewhere.



Why not get creative and build a resume site?


About the resume site idea, do you think I'd be able to use my current business site in that manner? I mean, that's one of the reasons it's there for. And perhaps I could expand on my portfolio page in some way, rather than just linking to my freelance work page.

I haven't been able to contract as much freelance work as recently though, due to all the time I've invested into job searching and other things, so I might not be able to quite "expand" on my current portfolio immediately.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone.

[vangogh]

determine whether I think I could improve there, design, code, etc.

I wouldn't offer any suggestions unless you're specifically asked about it in an interview. It's always possible the person making the decision about who to interview and hire is the one who designed the site. I would go through their site though and think about those things for the interview where it might be more appropriate to mention.

Besides that you always want to look through the company's site and any other information you can find about them. You can use what you find to tweak your resume and drop a line or two in the cover letter that makes more of a connection.


About the resume site idea, do you think I'd be able to use my current business site in that manner?

You could add a page or two on the current site to serve as a resume or you could build a new site that's resume only with a link back to your current business site.

[Spider]

...Basically, how can I communicate that I'd like to work for them without spamming them via my services or wasting their time as such?...If you are approaching them to sell them your services (as a business) repetitive solicitations would be spamming and annoying. However, if you are seeking employment, consider this - the staff levels and needs can change in an instant. Someone could quit, someone could fall sick or get injured, the company could land a big contract and suddenly need staff. Your letter today could be superfluous, but tomorrow the solution to a problem. I don't see that sending the same letter to the same company on a regular basis (per my story of Arthur above) would be out of place at all.

[jamestl2]

Hey guys, I could use a bit more advice.

Over the past few weeks or so I've received a few responses from companies that I sent my resumes to. Basically they've made a few generic statements like "We received your resume and will contact you shortly" or they ask "Hello James, do you have any samples of pages you've coded or themes you've created?".

So, I responded to them saying thanks for the replies and I gave a fairly extensive list of the information they've asked for, in-depth experience I have, etc. I sent these re-responses out about a week or go and none of them have replied back since.

Now what I'm asking here is that should I take this as a hint that they've already moved on and started looking for someone else (despite initially contacting me) or should I just give them more time to continue the conversation? (Again, it's been about a week or so and I haven't heard back since.)

Also, although I don't know too much about these smaller businesses, these companies actually sounded like cool and fun places to work at, and there isn't much else out there. Would it be alright to try contacting them again for a response, or would you as a business owner find it annoying and irritating that someone such as myself is persisting in this manner?

[Patrysha]

I think following up at this point would be a good idea. It's not as if you are calling immediately or every single day and being annoying about it.

[Blessed]

I'm agreeing with Patrysha - call again.

[billbenson]

Just remember, right now you are a salesman. You are selling yourself. Treat it that way.

When you send a resume or information or call; try to give them a reason that it is ok to contact again. They asked you for more information. You sent it all to them. Make sure you have a reason to respond with more information. Don't send them everything at once. Write something else that directly applies to them and send it to them later ie: "here is something I just completed for a customer, I thought you might find it interesting. I'll have the completed project in three weeks, I'll send that to you when everything is finished". Try to always give them a reason you can contact them again, whatever it is. Sell then keep selling.

The same is true with your old contacts. Find some new information to contact them with. Stay in front of them, but without being annoying.

By placing an ad for employment, they are asking you to sell yourself to them. Don't be ashamed about selling yourself. Just do a good job of it so they want to see more!

[jamestl2]

Alright, thanks.

I sent a follow-up letter explaining how my skills (with Wordpress) aren't just limited to WP, and I can still hand code XHTML / CSS without it.

I also figured I'd include my phone number this time (since I didn't send it the first time) in case there was anything to discuss in person.

Don't know if follow-up letters usually earn a response, but it's all I can really do at this point.

[vangogh]

Guess you've already sent the followup. I was going to agree with everyone about it.

Your follow up could just be a simple contact asking them if they've received your information or if a decision has been made. You don't have to send them more info.

Often a follow up is simply a thank you note for being considered and offering to supply more info if they need anything else.. All you're trying to do is get them to see your name again. Imagine they're considering 5 people. One thanks them for being considered and the others don't. The one who sent the thank you probably gains a slight lead in the hiring race (assuming all else was equal).

Also a week may or may not be a long time. Some companies work through the hiring process quickly. If a day goes by you're out. Others take their time and it could be a couple of weeks in between contacts. In either case just keep sending out resumes to other companies. Until someone tells you you've been hired and to start working, you still don't have a job and should keep sending out resumes looking.

[jamestl2]

I do hope the follow-up carries some weight in this instance, Steve.

Normally I say everything I need to in the email conversation directly. So it can be challenging at times thinking of what else to say besides "Thanks for your time".

Most of the companies I've been applying to are small businesses, and found the majority of them through Craigslist. Whether a week is long or not to most of these SBs, I don't know. But still, I haven't heard back from companies I applied to back in January, either.

[vangogh]

Sadly most of the time you'll never hear anything back. Some companies will send out the automated email that they received yours and that's it. Most you'll never hear from.

As tough as the search gets remember that it only takes one person to say yes for you to have a job. You can send out 10,000 resumes with nothing and still the next one could be the one that says yes.

[jamestl2]

Just hope I can find that one company sooner than later.


Quick Side-question:
Why can't most companies be bothered to respond?

I'm not fretting over it or anything, but it'd still be nice to hear something like "We're sorry, but we have decided to go in a different direction. Good luck in your future endeavors.".

An automated response is better than no response. It at least lets the potential employee(s) know the status of their application, and not to count on it for anything.

If I were looking to hire people, I'd inform everyone that applied whether they meet my company's needs or not, and thank them for their interest. Even if it's just an effortless bulk reply, it's the courteous thing to do.

[vangogh]

Most job seekers would appreciate some kind of response. You have to consider it from the company's side too. Some might easily get hundreds of resumes after placing a single ad. That's a lot of letters, emails, call to make. If you're emailing the resume there's no reason they can't give you the automated "thanks, we got it," but if you're mailing it in then it would be a lot of work for the company.

I think if you make it past the first stage and you interview or receive a phone call or even a second email, then the company should inform you of what's going on.

[jamestl2]

Understandable for those that mail their resumes or physically walk-in and apply. Guess I was just referring to applying online, email, etc.

Do many companies still accept physical resumes that way? Last time I checked, major companies where I live (like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Pick 'n Save Grocery Store, etc.) have all been using an online interface to hire for years now. Guess I assumed that the vast majority of businesses operate this way electronically now.

[Spider]

I'd be inclined to reply to their first request for more information without giving them the whole story. Not many people have been hired from an e-mail -- the e-mail is only a means to get invited for an interview. That is the sole purpose of your communicating with the company - to win an interview, not convey information. You could even offer, "....I could provide you with more information at an interview."

If you tell them everything in an e-mail, they now have no need to interview you!

Follow-up. I disagree with the "Did you get my e-mail?" type contact. Bill has the right answer - provide a bit more information. An update to something you told them in your previous reply - "The job I mentioned has now been completed and I saved the company $50,000 and two weeks of development time. They were very happy"

Make the tone of your follow up that you are expecting to be invited for an interview. Here is more information to help you interview me. Here is what I'm doing so you can arrange your schedule to interview me. Of course, you won't use those words, but that should be your tone.

Companies have no need to maintain contact if they don't want you. Don't expect a reply, then you won't be disappointed. Maybe it would be nice if they replied. Maybe it would even be in their interests to reply. But they won't and you are not in the business of helping them improve their recruiting techniques.

I believe if you zone in a few of the top companies in your industry (sounds to me like you are not doing this, though) then you will for a long time still want to work for them, even if you get another job in the meanwhile. As long as you still want to work for the best companies in your field, still keep them updated on your career progress, always in terms of how your progress would benefit them if they hired you. As long as you are writing to the person who would be your immediate superior, and not HR, your messages will have an impact in due course.

[jamestl2]

I'd say the closest thing that resembles an ideal "top company" that I'd be interested in working for would be Automattic (the company behind Wordpress).

I haven't applied there yet because, well, I just looked into the jobs they offer (http://automattic.com/jobs/)! And I suppose I'd want everything to be perfect for when I do, and not screw anything important up as things like cover and follow-up letters, resumes, etc. (as I'm still learning).

For one of the recent responses I received earlier, the recruiter(?) stated that "I had one of the shortest resumes he'd ever read". (Whether that's related to why I haven't heard back from him yet, I don't know.)

Everything I say in my email is contained within the cover letter that I linked to (well, the first email at least). Then I'll usually just answer whatever questions they ask in their response. Is it a good idea to not answer everything they ask about directly? (So I'm not giving away "too much information" in the email.) How do I know how much information I'm giving is too much?

I'm not sure what else I'd say in the interview that's not already being discussed through the email conversation, other than making small talk (which I'm not the best at) and repeating things I've already stated like "I have good coding skills" and "I can convert this for you", or telling the truth about questions they ask, like where I see myself in 10 years (wanting to work on my business).

[Spider]

I'd say the closest thing that resembles an ideal "top company" that I'd be interested in working for would be Automattic (the company behind Wordpress)... Then apply to Automattic.



...I haven't applied there yet because, well, I just looked into the jobs they offer (http://automattic.com/jobs/)! And I suppose I'd want everything to be perfect for when I do, and not screw anything important up as things like cover and follow-up letters, resumes, etc. (as I'm still learning)...Do you suppose Automattic don't have people working there who are at the level you are and even below that level? The higher the level of skill you go, likely the harder it will be get hired there. Which means now would be easier to get hired than later.

In fact, this draws attention to why you should be communicating with your intended superior and not Human Resources. People higher up in the organization are less likely to leave all of a sudden. It's the younger, lower-level, possibly single empployee that could leave suddenly and leave the manager with an understaffed project. When that happens, he needs someone now! If he is already in communication with you, and has been for a while, following your career path with your intermittent e-mails, and "knows" you to some degree - who will he contact? HR to "find" someone quick, or someone he already knows?

I have, on two occasions, landed lucrative jobs with top companies in my industry, in just this fashion.



...For one of the recent responses I received earlier, the recruiter(?) stated that "I had one of the shortest resumes he'd ever read". (Whether that's related to why I haven't heard back from him yet, I don't know.)...I think a remark like that was a compliment - I'd certainly take it as such. Same with résumés - tell everything in your résumé amd they have no need to invite you for an interview. (BTW - I thoroughly recommend you spell résumé correctly - with the accented é - ascii #233)



...Everything I say in my email is contained within the cover letter that I linked to (well, the first email at least). Then I'll usually just answer whatever questions they ask in their response. Is it a good idea to not answer everything they ask about directly? (So I'm not giving away "too much information" in the email.) How do I know how much information I'm giving is too much?...Well, you won't know how much is too much, but you do know if you are telling all. Don't tell all and just leave the implication that there is more to tell. Telling everything makes for a reply that is too long. Short replies are better - they only need to answer the question and no more -- "Yes, that's correct, and I'll tell you why, if you want to know that."

As long as they have something else to ask and as long as you can keep them on the hook asking the questions, the more likely they are to call you for an interview.



...I'm not sure what else I'd say in the interview that's not already being discussed through the email conversation, other than making small talk (which I'm not the best at) and repeating things I've already stated like "I have good coding skills" and "I can convert this for you", or telling the truth about questions they ask, like where I see myself in 10 years (wanting to work on my business).You've only been dealing with half the hiring process - what they want to know about you. The other half is - what you want to know about them.

Never give the idea that you think the interview is just them interviewing you. The interview is about you both interviewing each other, because there is much that you have to ask them about the position you will fill. If you make it clear that is how you see it, that sets you apart from most of the other applicants.

[vangogh]

James if you want to work for Automatic your best bet is just getting involved with WordPress. Have a look at the contributing to WordPress page (http://codex.wordpress.org/Contributing_to_WordPress). The best way to get their attention is contributing. I've seen several people get hired by Automatic because they took the time to contribute and help WordPress in some way.

[Blessed]

My next piece of advice is to learn the art of small talk.

Not necessarily talking to fill the air with the sound of your voice, but in the art of drawing a person into a conversation with you and figuring out how to carry your side of the conversation. It's a good life skill to have.

Start small - at the coffee shop, in the line at the supermarket... and find a networking group in your area to hook up with.

[jamestl2]

I really hadn't thought about the potential to work at Automattic until Fredrick mentioned Top Companies. Now after checking it out it seems like something I'll give a shot at.

Not sure what else I could contribute to the WP site, hadn't given it much thought, and don't know if I have time to do so. I have plenty of ideas and suggestions of ways I think PW could improve, but don't know what else I could add to the already existing WP pages, everything seems there already.



Do you suppose Automattic don't have people working there who are at the level you are and even below that level?


No, that's not what I meant.

What I meant was that I may not convey the image that I'm not the best qualified candidate for the particular job (even if I am, or am at least skilled more than others, either way). The first impression I give through my resumes and letters might cause potential superiors to think I have less skills than I actually do, due to the quality of those first documents. Thus leading to my shot at the job dismissed immediately, or at least not being seriously considered for the position available.



The interview is about you both interviewing each other, because there is much that you have to ask them about the position you will fill.


I never thought about it like that, might try something like that at my next one. Everyone I've ever talked to about job interviews (family, teachers, etc.) basically gave the idea that your primary objective is to get hired and show your qualified, and showcase your skills to the company. But then again, it's not something we talked about very much.



Start small - at the coffee shop, in the line at the supermarket... and find a networking group in your area to hook up with


With who though? Just start approaching random strangers? Or talk to the employee at the checkout or wherever? That actually sounds worse than trying to start small talk with people I know.

However, I'd first like to find work and get hired, then be able to move out and start supporting myself. Anyway, all I mean is that educating myself in small talk isn't exactly at the top of my priorities list at the moment.


Another thing that came up recently: What do you do if a potential employer asks you about experience with something that wasn't even remotely mentioned on the job advertisement?

I'm trying to find the best way to say something along the lines of "No, I haven't worked on developing this way specifically, so I don't have any specific experience developing that way". It's not something I'm adversed to learning, but I don't feel I'd be the best at it for awhile either, and it doesn't take away from my other skills.

[Patrysha]

What I meant was that I may not convey the image that I'm not the best qualified candidate for the particular job (even if I am, or am at least skilled more than others, either way). The first impression I give through my resumes and letters might cause potential superiors to think I have less skills than I actually do, due to the quality of those first documents. Thus leading to my shot at the job dismissed immediately, or at least not being seriously considered for the position available.

Then you improve those documents until they do highlight your best qualities...and these are often personality qualities over actual skills when you really get down to it. Anybody can be taught skills, but attitude can't be - at least not easily and inexpensively.

So start with your strengths....

Cover letters and Resumes are easy to learn how to write well if you apply yourself. This is just a sales job really...you are selling yourself...your pr (public relations) tools are part of how you do that.

Your job right now is getting a job...so look up potential interview questions online and tape yourself as you answer them...work on getting to the point where you feel confident in your presentation and skills.

It's really not hard...

Tons of resources are available...hit up your local library, see if there's a youth training center around (I learned how to write a resume and cover letter and gained interview skills through a gov't program when I was in my early 20's after I had dropped out of broadcasting school)

Good luck.

We're all rooting for you!

[jamestl2]

What I'm saying is I don't know if they're the best they can be. (They might already contain more than enough information.)

I have seen a few other examples out there, some had more info than mine, some had less (in different fields, however). And while nobody claimed whether these resume styles helped them get interviews, they were fairly diverse.

However, due to the fact that I have only received a few responses and only one or two interviews, I'm assuming they aren't the greatest, but I could be wrong, and the reasoning might be completely unrelated.

[jamestl2]

I had taken down my previous documents (They were causing problems, and I revised them a bit). I can't edit posts that far back, so in case anyone had wanted to take a look at mine specifically, here's the new URLs:
Resume:
http://www.jameslewitzke.com/resume.doc

Cover Letter:
http://www.jameslewitzke.com/coverletter.doc

[vangogh]

Both downloaded. I'll take a look when I can.

As far as Automatic is concerned, but contributing your first step is simply looking over what they need and seeing where you can help. One place is to join the support forums and answer questions.


Do you suppose Automattic don't have people working there who are at the level you are and even below that level?

Naturally I don't know everyone who works for them, but they aren't going to look like your typical company. Automatic is a virtual company. They have an office that no one ever uses. The people who work there are mainly the people who developed WordPress in the first place. They're people who know the ins and outs of WordPress better than most.

They most likely also have a very large pool of people to draw from when they need to hire.

James the interview works two ways. You want to interview them to decide if you really want to work for the company. You asking them questions also shows you're interested so it usually helps them think more of you.

[jamestl2]

Thanks for the download again, Steve, although I don't believe I changed them too much since I sent the PM to you.

I'm actually working on a WP plugin at the moment (my first one). I'm not the greatest PHP scripter, but I think I can follow the codex and a few tutorials enough to know the basics of writing a simple plugin that actually does something. Anyway, once I finish it and get a chance to submit it, maybe that can count towards contribution.

You think it's better to contribute a bit and post on the wordpress.org forums, submit a plugin or theme or two, etc. before I go ahead and send them an application? That way they could get to know me a bit better, might stand a better chance of getting accepted, etc.

[Blessed]

With who though? Just start approaching random strangers? Or talk to the employee at the checkout or wherever? That actually sounds worse than trying to start small talk with people I know.

However, I'd first like to find work and get hired, then be able to move out and start supporting myself. Anyway, all I mean is that educating myself in small talk isn't exactly at the top of my priorities list at the moment.

You make it sound so horrible :)

Smile, talk to the employee at the checkout, if you make eye-contact with someone while you are enjoying your coffee on the patio say something simple like "it's a beautiful day" and then resume sipping and surfing. It really is quite simple. I'm not talking about 30 minute conversations, we're talking 30 seconds, a minute - just to get used to the idea of exchanging pleasantries with people you don't know

Then move on to your neighbors, go to parties or get-togethers with your friends and talk to people you don't know, hit the neighborhood garage sales and talk to people about their junk, their star wars collection, their whatever. Volunteer for a political campaign or take place in a March of Dimes event... and put yourself in positions where you have to have longer conversations with people.

I'm really just pushing you to learn how to sell yourself. It comes easy for some of us, for others I can appreciate the fact that it's harder.

[vangogh]

James I don't see any reason why you can't send them an application, especially if they're currently posting about jobs to fill.

I'm just thinking that they probably get a lot of applications and they'll get to know you much better if you contribute to WordPress in some way. Some of the people currently working for Automatic didn't specifically apply for jobs there. They contributed to WordPress in some significant way and then received an offer to work there.

For those few jobs that you might consider dream jobs, it pays to go the extra mile.

[Spider]

I really hadn't thought about the potential to work at Automattic until Fredrick mentioned Top Companies. Now after checking it out it seems like something I'll give a shot at... Glad to hear it!



...What I meant was that I may not convey the image that I'm not the best qualified candidate for the particular job (even if I am, or am at least skilled more than others, either way). The first impression I give through my resumes and letters might cause potential superiors to think I have less skills than I actually do, due to the quality of those first documents. Thus leading to my shot at the job dismissed immediately, or at least not being seriously considered for the position available...You're making it sound as if you think you have one shot with this company and that's it, for all time. My view is that, if you don't get this job you can still try for the next one. But more to my point, be there, on their radar, waiting in the wings, so you are first in line when a next job pops up. In the meanwhile, your continued communications with your soon-to-be-manager have been improving and he/she will have first-hand knowledge of your continued development.



...I never thought about it like that, might try something like that at my next one. Everyone I've ever talked to about job interviews (family, teachers, etc.) basically gave the idea that your primary objective is to get hired and show your qualified, and showcase your skills to the company...I always tried to take the following attitude - the interview is in two parts (1) they want to find out if I would suit the job, and (2) I wanted to find out if the job would suit me. They get to go first, so regarding (1) I already knew I suited the job and I would help them discover that, too. Then it's my turn to find out if I wanted to work for them. Just as their questions are about things that are important to them, my questions would be about things that were important to me - working hours, working conditions, possibilities for advancement, company attitude to in-house recruiting or outside recruiting, how old was the company's youngest manager, and so on.

I would never discuss salary. Perhaps in my first few jobs I would just accept what they paid because working for them was more important to my development than how much I got paid. But later, I would refuse to discuss salary at the interview.



...educating myself in small talk isn't exactly at the top of my priorities list at the moment...Except that much of your interviews, and setting the tone at your interviews, is small talk.



...Another thing that came up recently: What do you do if a potential employer asks you about experience with something that wasn't even remotely mentioned on the job advertisement? ...Welcome such an occasion! This is great opportunity to show your keenness to learn new things and expand your skills.


...I'm trying to find the best way to say something along the lines of "No, I haven't worked on developing this way specifically, so I don't have any specific experience developing that way". It's not something I'm adversed to learning, but I don't feel I'd be the best at it for awhile either, and it doesn't take away from my other skills.How about?...

"Ooh! Will I get the chance to learn that? Fabulous!" Demonstrates passion for your craft, willingness to learn, eagerness to grow.

Try not to use the word, No. Turn everything into a Yes - "Yes, I would love to learn that." It answers the question - I don't know how to do it - in a way that conveys willingness to learn.

Don't say, "I don't have any specific experience developing that way." Say, "Learning that will complement the skills I already have." Which stresses you willingness to learn and reminds them that you do have other skills they can benefit from.

Why say, "I'm not averse to learning?" That makes it sound like they'll have to force you to learn. Say, "I am eager to learn."

And, certainly, do not say, "I don't feel I'd be the best at it for awhile." They'll find enough you are not the best at without encouraging them! Your job is to tell them what you are the best at. And if that is the best at learning, the most eager, the most willing, the most passionate applicant, that alone could win you the job.

And, as a side note, much of this is good word choice that comes from being good at small talk!

Remember this - attitude is everything. If there are some things that you do not know that they need, they can teach you them. What they cannot teach you is how to be a willing learner, how to be keen to work, how to have passion for the job and the company. I knew someone once who always said, when hiring, he would hire the nicest applicants. Because he could teach the skills he needed in a person but he didn't know how to teach employees how to be happy, keen and willing workers.

[jamestl2]

Whew, just finished developing my first WP plugin! I imagine it gets simpler as you develop more.

Anyway, now that it's out there, I think I'm going to find a way to get it to help me with an automattic position or something, maybe I can mention it on my resume, or get it listed in the plugin DB, haven't thought that far ahead yet.



You make it sound so horrible :)




Except that much of your interviews, and setting the tone at your interviews, is small talk.


OK, maybe I was going off a bit too much on small talk. It's not THAT bad, I can still talk about things here and there in real life. (I've endured worse ;).)



Why say, "I'm not averse to learning?" That makes it sound like they'll have to force you to learn. Say, "I am eager to learn."


I meant "It's not something I'm adversed to learning" in that I don't have any problems in learning about whatever they're asking for experience in. I wouldn't tell them that I don't believe I could pick up the new experience easily, that's just how I'd feel inside in certain situations.

I had asked about the experience that wasn't mentioned because that was all he asked about. He asked the one question that had nothing to do with the skill qualifications that were listed .It gave me the impression that the job was nothing like what the description of the advertisement stated it was.


Some great advice in this thread so far guys, unfortunately I have to spread some rep around before I can click again!

[Spider]

...I had asked about the experience that wasn't mentioned because that was all he asked about. He asked the one question that had nothing to do with the skill qualifications that were listed .It gave me the impression that the job was nothing like what the description of the advertisement stated it was... Sometimes a skilled interviewer will ask a question that is totally unrelated to the job to find out how you deal with questions you can't answer. Do you waffle? Do you try to fudge it? Are you honest? Are you defensive? Did you get flusterred? -- all useful information for a potential employer to know.

If you sent a full and detailed résumé and the interviewer seemed to focus on an unexpected topic, this may signify that your résumé answered all his questions on what you were expecting.

Thirdly: don't suppose that the advertised position is intended to inform you about anything. The ad isn't for your benefit - it's for the employer's benefit. The sole purpose of the ad is for the employer to find one or a few specific people to hire. If advertising for computer repair technicians brings in the sort of people they want to hire as software developers, they'll advertise for repair technicians.

I knew a firm of architects, a long time ago, who always advertised for cricket-players. Only at the end of the ad did it become clear that the cricket-players they wanted had to be architects, too. Because the company had a strong social program, that included everyone being on the copany's cricket team, and they wouldn't hire anyone who did not fit in socially, no matter how good an architect they may have been.

Besides, the questions you ask will clarify what the job is really about and whether you want to work for them at that job.

[vangogh]

maybe I can mention it on my resume, or get it listed in the plugin DB, haven't thought that far ahead yet.

Yes, definitely do both.


Sometimes a skilled interviewer will ask a question that is totally unrelated to the job to find out how you deal with questions you can't answer.

Absolutely. Frederick is exactly right. Not every question you get is designed to find out specific skills for the job.

One other point about interviews, which I apologize if it's already been mentioned, is to practice prior to the interview. Think of the possible questions they might ask and think of the answers you'll give to those questions. You won't be able to anticipate every question, but with each interview you'll be able to anticipate more and your answers will get better each time out.

[jamestl2]

Well, I just sent out my job application and resume to Automattic. Hope to hear back from them soon and that it leads to an interview. (Wonder how that will turn out since they're mostly headquartered in San Fransisco.) I also received an email notifying me that my plugin was accepted into the wordpress.org DB.

Trying not to put most of my hope eggs into this one basket, but it is my ideal place to work for at the moment.

[Spider]

Fingers crossed!

[vangogh]

Good luck James. Let us know what happens.

[KristineS]

Good luck James. Keep us updated.

[jamestl2]

Thanks again guys.

If they happen to respond within the next few weeks or so, I'll let you know :). If not, I'll assume they've moved on, and I will too.

[jamestl2]

I finally got an interview! :D

I've been in contact with the company over this past week. I found the ad for the company on Craigslist, and they're based in Madison, WI. Within hours of responding to the ad, they re-responded AND called me at home and sent me a survey of questions to fill out.

After another day or two, they reviewed my answers and scheduled a meeting for next week Tuesday at their Madison offices for the interview.

They've seemed very eager to have me fill their position. The job is basically designing a site for them and maintaining it, adding new content, etc. among a few other usual web-related things. The position is full time too, so if I do get the job, I'll be moving out there over the summer.

[Patrysha]

Congratulations!

[vangogh]

Congrats James. When will you find out if you got the job and how do you feel about moving to Wisconsin?

[KristineS]

Congratulations on getting an interview James. Let us know how it igoes.

[jamestl2]

The interview went alright, I suppose. Did my best to make it two-sided, ask questions about what I would be doing, what the work environment is like, etc.

I was one of three candidates they had line up for interviews.


Congrats James. When will you find out if you got the job and how do you feel about moving to Wisconsin?

What do you mean Steve? I've lived in Wisconsin my whole life :D.

If you mean Madison, the new location of the job, I'd say it sounds interesting. If the job opportunity falls through, I'll feel a bit nervous about the whole change, yet also excited about it at the same time.


The Director of the branch that interviewed me said he'd reach a decision by next week.

[vangogh]

D'oh. Why did I think you lived somewhere else (It's not like it's under your username). I guess it won't be much trouble moving to where you already live :)

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you. Sounds like the interview went well enough and with only 3 candidates you have a pretty good shot.

[vangogh]

Any word yet James. Still keeping my fingers crossed.

In case things don't go as well as you hope I thought you might find this post interesting. 27 Examples of Impressive Resume(CV) Designs (http://dzineblog.com/2010/04/27-examples-of-impressive-resumecv-designs.html). There are some really creative resumes shown.

Most are for designers, which explains the creativity, but there are a few resumes in there that could easily work no matter what kind of job you're looking for. I thought you might take some inspiration and dress up your resume a bit if necessary.

Hopefully though, you don't need to send any more out.

For everyone else, even if you aren't looking for a job, you'll probably find some if not most of these resumes interesting. What do you think of them? Some would naturally only work for a design or graphic related career, but in general what do you think of the idea of adding a little design to your resume?

I think it can help a lot. You'd definitely stand out and it gives you opportunities to share more of what you can do without actually having to say what you can do.

[jamestl2]

Haven't heard anything yet. I'm guessing I'll get a response by the end of the week, the timeframe he gave for a response was just "sometime next week", so it could be coming any day now.

If things don't fall through though, I'll take a look at some of the designs and modify it a it perhaps.

[vangogh]

I just found another post with resume templates (http://speckyboy.com/2010/05/05/10-free-professional-html-and-css-templates/). These are a little less designed and I think you just need to pop in your info.

Still keeping my fingers crossed. Know that at some point regardless of whether or not you've heard anything it still makes sense to send out more resumes. The only time you really stop is when you've been told you've been hired.

[jamestl2]

Well, still haven't heard back from them yet. It kinda sucks too since they said they'd "let me know by next week" (and it's already the week after next week).

Guess I'll have to start looking all over again.

[vangogh]

Sounds like it's probably not going to happen. Sorry to hear. Don't take the non call personally. A lot of companies never do get in touch again even when they say they will. You can probably send an email to ask if they've made a decision if you want.

If you're sending out resumes again take a look at some of the posts I linked to above. The resume template link had some nice looking resumes you should be able to easily fill in with your information.

[jamestl2]

Thanks again for the links Steve.

I sent out one more "last ditch" email attempt to see if they had reached a decision yet. (Sent it out yesterday).

If I don't hear back by the end of the day, I think I'm going to consider this one "dead" for the most part.

[Spider]

Thanks again for the links Steve.
I sent out one more "last ditch" email attempt to see if they had reached a decision yet. (Sent it out yesterday).
If I don't hear back by the end of the day, I think I'm going to consider this one "dead" for the most part.I hope you mean temporarily dead and not totally dead. The person who holds "your" position right now - or a position you could and would happily fill - might be getting fired for a screw up, as we speak, or has just this minute accepted another job and is writing his resignation letter at this very moment.

If this is the company you want to work for, keep in touch with the manager you would be working under (still avoiding HR) by e-mailing him every month or so. For how long? For as long as you still want to work with them - if that is years, then for years. Somewhere along the way, as you progress, you may find another company you would prefer to work with. Do the same with them.

When a company turns you down, or ignores you, that doesn't mean they won't ever, ever hire you. It only means they aren't going to hire you this time. So start getting ready for next time.

Do that, and you will be ahead of 99% of all other applicants that come to the party late.

[jamestl2]

What I meant by "dead" was that I'm not going to get my hopes up and expect to hear back from them anytime soon, where they've likely decided to go into another direction in filling that particular position. Earlier, I felt I already had a great chance of getting that job, and I was excited about the prospect. Not so much anymore...

If they contact me at a later time, and I haven't already found another job, I'd find it highly like that I'd accept their offer.

I wouldn't say that it was my "dream job" to work there for the next 20 years or however long. It was just the best available position that interested me and offered me new work and life experiences.

The person who interviewed me was the manager / regional director of the branch. And he's the one who told me they'd reach a decision by "next week" and contact me about it.

[Spider]

...The person who interviewed me was the manager / regional director of the branch...That's even better. Now, when he is reading your e-mail, he has a definite person in mind, not a bunch of words from a stranger. And, if you made any impression on him at all, when he progresses within the company, he takes those memories of you with him.

See if there is some way you can get a non-company e-mail address for him - so that, if he leaves the company, you can still contact him at his new post. He might want to hire you there.

Networking, networking, networking!

[vangogh]

Yep. I've been hired for jobs with companies months after I interviewed. Someone else was better qualified when I first went in, but other jobs in the company opened later that I was more qualified for.

And you never know if this manager knows a manager at another company who is also looking to fill a similar position.

Like Frederick said, networking, networking, networking!

[jamestl2]

I hope I made an impression on him, I thought I gave some pretty decent responses to the (general) interview questions, and I answered everything honestly as well.

I've emailed the temp agency recruiter that set me up with the position's interview earlier. Hopefully she can get back to me.


But I'm not going to count on anything right at the moment regarding this particular position. So far all my searching for particular jobs and positions has consisted of jobs around Milwaukee, Madison, and SE Wisconsin in general.

So one thing I have been considering now is looking for work out-of-state. Anyone have experience with this? Meaning is there anything I should be concerned about, differences you use in writing your resume, informing potential employers about you're willingness to relocate, etc.

I have no idea "where" I want to look for work yet, but right now living just about anywhere a decent job is available sounds good.

[vangogh]

I went looking out of state after graduating after exhausting New York. I didn't do anything different that I can remember. I might have added something to my cover letter about being willing to relocate at my expense, though I might not have.

In the end I did find a job out of state, though not too far from where I was living at the time. The main issues were finding a new place to live prior to starting the job, but otherwise there wasn't any difference between applying in state and out of state.

[billbenson]

One other option that hasn't really been discussed is getting a job, any job, with a company you would want to work for and then apply for positions you want internally. I went from technician to training, to sales in a very short period of time when got out of college. I was in CA and a sales opening appeared in Florida. I applied and got it.

[vangogh]

That's a good point. Plenty of people have started in the mailroom and then moved up in the company.

[jamestl2]

The thing about my situation though, is that it's not the company that really drives me, it's the work I'd be doing for them.

I mean, I really don't know much about the thousands of organizations' inner workings and politics of what goes on, but I know as long as I'm doing what I enjoy there (building and managing websites generally), I'd be happy. So basically, the company in particular doesn't make a whole lot of difference, so it isn't exactly a priority.

[vangogh]

I can understand that. But if you can't get the specific job you want, sometimes you can get another job in any company and in time move into the position you want. It depends on how much you need a job compared to how long you can afford to wait for the job you want.

I can't speak for everyone, but my approach to job hunting was always to start by looking for my ideal job and then as time passed start moving out toward any job I was qualified for.

[billbenson]

One of the unfortunate facts of life is most people have to play corporate politics at some point in their career. I think you will find that a large percentage of us here had corporate positions and really hated playing the games - but we did it!

I forget if you said at any point that you were specializing in any particular aspect of web design ie languages, graphics, seo etc. I'm guessing, but I suspect in large companies, there really isn't anyone that writes "websites". Someone does content, someone plans the overall site, someone does the javascript all as a part of a team.

Again guessing, but I suspect the only place in corporate america that needs a true webmaster are the small companies who see the benifit in a quality website and have the budget to hire one.


I know as long as I'm doing what I enjoy there (building and managing websites generally), I'd be happy. So basically, the company in particular doesn't make a whole lot of difference, so it isn't exactly a priority.
If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are looking for a pretty difficult job to find in corporate america.

[jamestl2]

I think that's what I'm going to be doing right now too, Steve. Problem is, I don't know what I want to broaden my search to...


I forget if you said at any point that you were specializing in any particular aspect of web design ie languages, graphics, seo etc. I'm guessing, but I suspect in large companies, there really isn't anyone that writes "websites". Someone does content, someone plans the overall site, someone does the javascript all as a part of a team.

Well, right now, I haven't been. Pretty much still looking for any full-time Webmaster position in my area.

Also, the last company I had an interview for that I mentioned, they didn't "specialize" they only had one person that took care of the company website (the position I was applying for did everything web-related).


If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are looking for a pretty difficult job to find in corporate america.

So why exactly is it "difficult to find"?

I'd say the majority of businesses today have a website they need updated and modified constantly, or at least some sort of online presence they use regularly (even more-so for "corporate america").

[billbenson]

Difficult if you want to manage all aspects of a website. Not difficult if you want to be part of a web team.

[jamestl2]

Well that hasn't been the case for the majority of positions I've seen available so far (most of them were for small businesses though).

Regardless, either being a part of a web team or working as a sole webmaster would be fine for me.