How do you edit a PDF from someone else?

[Harold Mansfield]

I can't believe that I don't know how to do this but lately it's come up a lot.
Clients or prospects sending things like non-disclosure agreements in a PDF and wanting them signed and returned to discuss their projects.

So how do I take a PDF created by someone else and add my signature to it?

[cbscreative]

PDF is meant primarily as a read only format and may or may not be editable. Do you have Acrobat? Another app that might work is WordPerfect. The last few versions will open a PDF, usually, and if so, you should be able to edit. WP will also allow you to easily save as a PDF to send back.

If all else fails, try opening the PDF with Illustrator or Photoshop. Then paste in a scan of your sig. Hope one of those works. People who send things in PDF for this purpose fail to understand the read only nature of PDF (I get that too, many people think it's an all purpose format).

[Harold Mansfield]

People who send things in PDF for this purpose fail to understand the read only nature of PDF (I get that too, many people think it's an all purpose format).

That's what I thought too. I didn't think I was crazy, but after 3 different people did it, I was starting to think that maybe I wasn't paying attention in class or something.

[Blessed]

If you have the full version of Acrobat there is a signature function that works pretty well - if everyone understands what is going on with it.

Also - PDF's can be created to be fill-outable forms. One of my clients had me turn her work orders into PDF forms that she emails all of her clients - along with the proofs of their direct mail pieces. No more trying to figure out the handwriting on a faxed back form.

I can actually take most PDF's and do anything I want with them - but... that's a trade secret :) right?

[cbscreative]

True, Jenn. Acrobat has added some nice features in recent versions (someday I might even get the chance to use live conferencing which will be fun). I figured from Harold's description that those options were not used in the PDF he received.

[Blessed]

I haven't played with it much, but from what I understand the signature feature on the full version of Acrobat is applicable to any PDF you open. Do you know if that is true or not?

[Business Attorney]

If the PDF was generated from a program such as Word, WordPerfect or OpenOffice and you have Adobe Acrobat Standard, you can easily export the entire text to a new file, add your signature and resave it as a new PDF file. The person who created the file can adjust the settings so that is not possible, but I almost never see that.

If the PDF document was scanned from a hard copy, the exporting won't work. You would need an OCR program such as OmniPage to convert the image to text. That is usually a painful task if you have a document with much formatting at all.

I send PDF documents for signature every day and I would say 99 percent of the time the recipient prints the PDF file (or at least the signature page) and then signs, scans and saves the printed copy as a new PDF file.

[nealrm]

I think you are looking for a tech solution to a simple issue. In general PDFs are designed to be non-editable. So, unless the person that created the PDF setup fields to be inputed, any edit would have to be done on an image of the document. My guess is that they sent you the document in this format because they expect you to print in out and sign it. You can return the document by faxing it back, or scanning and email it.

[Harold Mansfield]

What I'm hearing from everyone is what I suspected in the first place. If people want something signed...make it easy for me to do so. Don't require me to have to have special software...just send the damn thing as an MS Word file or plain text. What's wrong with sending a non-disclosure in plain text? You can save it how ever you want when you get it back.
Why is everyone so PDF crazy?

[Business Attorney]

I send PDF files for one of two reasons (or sometimes both):

On longer documents particularly, different printers will often print the same Word document differently. That may mean that two people with the same document have different pagination, or headings that end up at the bottom of the page. If I send it in PDF, every copy looks the same.

More important, when I get a signed copy back, I want to know that it was the same document I sent. I don't want someone to change a sentence and send the document back without drawing attention to the change.

[Blessed]

David - you said exactly what I was going to say - PDF's are more predictable than Word documents - because they are harder to edit and maintain their formatting more accurately.

[billbenson]

Couldn't you just open it in Photoshop or Gimp, overlay the signature in a layer and save it as a pdf?

[Steve B]

What David said. If you are sending a legal document, you don't want to have to compare it word for word to make sure it hasn't been changed. Just think how different a document would be if someone simply slipped in the word "not" without the author knowing it. As in: I will not abide by the above terms and conditions.

[nealrm]

Why everyone making something so easy so difficult. Print it out, sign it and fax it back. If it is a really long contract print out only the signiture page.

I think computers are great, but software is not the solution to every problem.

[Evan]

If the PDF was generated from a program such as Word, WordPerfect or OpenOffice and you have Adobe Acrobat Standard, you can easily export the entire text to a new file, add your signature and resave it as a new PDF file. The person who created the file can adjust the settings so that is not possible, but I almost never see that.

If the PDF document was scanned from a hard copy, the exporting won't work. You would need an OCR program such as OmniPage to convert the image to text. That is usually a painful task if you have a document with much formatting at all.

I send PDF documents for signature every day and I would say 99 percent of the time the recipient prints the PDF file (or at least the signature page) and then signs, scans and saves the printed copy as a new PDF file.

This is also what I find is most common with clients. If they don't scan or re-create the PDF, they'll either fax it... or, remember that postal delivery system? Believe it or not, they still are in business. :)

[vangogh]

I'm with Neal on this. Print it, sign it, and send it back via fax of mail. Make a copy for your records before sending. Isn't the idea to have a real signature anyway? Like Neal said, software isn't the solution to everything. I bought an all-in-one print with fax capabilities just for this very thing, the ability to sign and send documents.

[cbscreative]

I bought an all-in-one print with fax capabilities just for this very thing, the ability to sign and send documents.

Ditto that, but I have times when it's easier to just do what needs to be done like sign it, convert it back to PDF, and return email to source. If they give you a fax number, great, but if not, it can sometimes be just as much of a hassle to obtain it.

[billbenson]

The one thing I don't like about the fax option is you then only have a paper record of what you did.Give relatively the same time to walk to the fax machine and send it to pasting a signature and saving it and sending it, I like that better. Some of you keep a lot of paper records as part of your business. Us web guys really don't need to and your email becomes a way to store important documents.

[vangogh]

My records are generally digital. In this case Harold would still have the digital copy. The only part he wouldn't have would be his signature and I would imagine he would need a printed copy of that anyway if something went to court or similar. About the only reason too why the signature would be important. If having the signature digital is important the all-in-on-printer probably includes a scanner too.

I'm with you Bill on not wanting paper records around and I've never been a fan of fax machines in general. In this case though both seem like the best solution to me.

[billbenson]

It still just strikes me that if you have a scanned signature in photoshop just for this purpose, opening the document, overlaying the image, and saving it would take less time than faxing it would take less time?

[dynocat]

Would overlaying a signature in photoshop for, say, a contract, be considered legal in court? What's to keep me from adding my client's "signature" without their knowledge?

[billbenson]

Thats one for David, but since the email will be sent from your IP and the overlaying shows intent, I would think it would be pretty hard to wiggle out of that one.

[vangogh]

It still just strikes me that if you have a scanned signature in photoshop just for this purpose, opening the document, overlaying the image, and saving it would take less time than faxing it would take less time?

Maybe. Assuming Harold has an image of his signature and Photoshop or similar. The thing is printing, signing, and faxing doesn't take much time either.

David would know better, but I would think your method would hold up in court. So many documents pass back and forth online that there has to be some valid form of electronic signature. It's not as though the fax is the actual signature either. It's also just a copy of something you signed.

[billbenson]

The thing is printing, signing, and faxing doesn't take much time either.
It requires standing up and walking to the fax machine. Thats a weeks worth of exercise at my age :)

[Business Attorney]

All the examples would probably be considered valid evidence of your agreement to be bound. I don't see any basis for arguing that overlaying a signature on an image to create a signed document is any better than signing a copy that you have printed out and then scanning or faxing it as an electronic image. If you don't work alone, it may be easy for someone else to add your signature to an image file, but anyone with a pair of scissors and a good eye can probably cut and paste a signature from another document onto a signature page before scanning or faxing.

[Business Attorney]

It requires standing up and walking to the fax machine. Thats a weeks worth of exercise at my age :)

I can fax from my computer without leaving my chair...

[Evan]

It still just strikes me that if you have a scanned signature in photoshop just for this purpose, opening the document, overlaying the image, and saving it would take less time than faxing it would take less time?

Assuming you have Photoshop and know how to do this... The average joe doesn't. :)

[vangogh]

Thanks David. I had a feeling the image would be valid. Doesn't it generally come down to questioning in court anyway along the lines "is this your signature?"

Ok, so who wants to call out Bill for being lazy :) C'mon Bill, move those legs, get that blood flowing.

[billbenson]

Actually, I'm an automation freak more than lazy. I'll spend a week writing a program to do some task that I do over and over. This kind of fits that profile.


Assuming you have Photoshop and know how to do this... The average joe doesn't.

@ Evan - I bet you would be surprised how many people know how to at least do simple tasks in Photoshop or similar. Particularly college generation. You graduated not to long ago. Can you use photoshop?

[Blessed]

I send PDF files for one of two reasons (or sometimes both):

On longer documents particularly, different printers will often print the same Word document differently. That may mean that two people with the same document have different pagination, or headings that end up at the bottom of the page. If I send it in PDF, every copy looks the same.

More important, when I get a signed copy back, I want to know that it was the same document I sent. I don't want someone to change a sentence and send the document back without drawing attention to the change.

The whole photoshop discussion brought me back to this point from David - about not wanting someone to change a sentence, sign the document and you not being aware that the sentence was changed. If the PDF is not secured I could do exactly that - open the PDF and make subtle changes that most people wouldn't notice. I realize that most people don't have the knowledge or software to be able to do those things, but I can and do change PDF's everyday of the week. So if you are the person sending the PDF and it's something you want the receiver to sign and send back without making any changes be sure that you secure the file so that it can't be changed.

[vangogh]

Actually, I'm an automation freak more than lazy.

I know. I was teasing more than anything else.

@Jenn - good point about securing the PDF. Defeats the point of the contract if you can edit it any way you want before signing.