customers expecting me to fix existing conditions for free

[huggytree]

i just had this issue again 3 days ago. its an issue i have about 2x a year

i replace a sink or bathtub....then the homeowner complains that the drain doesnt drain as well afterwards...my answer is always 'unless i dropped a wrench into the drain its just some gunk that was already in there and you have to pay to have it drain cleaned'

i dont know if they are lying about the slow drains (trying to get me to clean them for free), or if me cutting the pipes and rattling them some breaks loose alot of gunk and plugs them up....either way how is that my fault?

my contracts say 'not responsible for existing conditions of the piping'

when the customers persist(which they always seem to) i say 'who put the gunk in your pipes? did i?, unless i put the gunk in there its an pre-existing condition'

ive never had a happy customer when this issue comes up...i see it as an abusive customer who's trying to get something for free.....

the latest one was a sewer backup(citywide)...it permanently stained the plastic laundry tub, so they got it replaced from the insurance company....now that the drains are slow they want me to clean them for free....sewage from the whole city backed up through their laundry tub....but its now my fault that the drains dont work well. it has nothing to do with their neighbors poop coming out their drains.

i typically start out being nice and explaining why its not my fault, but when they persist and demand i fix it i get irritated. i refuse to pay $150 to have their drains cleaned....the last job was $35 in profit and was done @ T&M...no way ill pay!

any opinions?

i had one customer a while back with galvanized water pipe. i replaced a section and afterwards she blamed me for her faucets plugging up over and over....i think she wanted me to repipe her whole house for free....she reported me to the BBB....since that job was T&M i offered to come over w/o trip charge or min's and fix the problems...she wanted it for free...then complained about my prices.

maybe i need to do a disclaimer for any customer w/ old plumbing...to make them realize things i do may effect their old plumbing....its always on old houses....50-100 years old....the majority of my work is on newer houses 10-30 years old

[dizzle]

My opinion is CYA. Cover Your Ass.

A lot of people (especially in today's economy) are looking for ways to get things for free or to blame other's for there stupidity and idiocy. We all do it whether we like it or not.

I feel that if you write up in your contracts that you are not liable for anything that happens with there piping after doing what they are paying you to do, that's all that matters.

In the contract, it says that you will be accomplishing A, B, and C. X, Y, and Z are not your responsibility, and if either of those were to happen after you doing A, B & C, it is the responsibility of the homeowner and that you are not liable for the fixing of the damages.

If a customer calls and complains, state that in your contract specifically that you are not liable and that they are responsible.

If they complain/sue/etc you have a contracted that CYA'd for you.

[KristineS]

I'd say it's a cost benefit thing. How much time and effort and money will it cost you to fix their problem vs. how much money and reputation and customer satisfaction will you lose if you don't. For some customers, if they're good customers or influential in the community, it might make sense to do the work. For others it wouldn't.

I also think having a disclaimer is a good idea. Customers will still ask you, but at least then you'll have in writing what you're going to do and what you're not.

[huggytree]

i see these customers at predators.....not honest customers.....typically the predatory customer is not a loyal customer...they are just looking to take advantage of the next business...

maybe im wrong and these are honest customers. my contract says 'not responsible for the condition of existing piping'.....im covered

[billbenson]

Can you test to see if the pipes are partially clogged during your work. If so do it as a value added thing. Test the pipes for blockage. If there is some, notify the customer while you are there and have a price to fix it before completing the installation. You could present this service before hand. An upsell of sorts.

[huggytree]

many times things are demo'd before i arrive, so i dont know how well the drains ran before....but i do test things afterwards...i dont do drain cleaning (nor do i want to), so when they run slow i cant do anything about it...typically most jobs are bid out, so i cant add a drain cleaning charge and get away with it.....

this last one ran fine when i was there....sounds like it plugged up a few weeks later..i think the sawsall blade vibrating on the pipes broke some sludge loose...

most of the drains i deal with on 50+ year old homes run slow....its a given....if i add a drain cleaning onto every job i may lose jobs over price...damned if you do and damned if you dont situation.

thanks for the tip though Bill

[Steve B]

It's great to add CYA language to your contract, but keep in mind almost nobody will read it before they sign it. I have a very clear, easy to read list of Terms and Conditions on the back of my sales agreement. Right next to their required signature, it says "I agree to the terms and conditions on the reverse side ...". I have had well over a thousand people sign this and exactly two have even turned over the sheet before they signed it. I don't think either of the two read it carefully - they just scanned it briefly.

My point is, the CYA is necessary, but it's for when/if you go to court. It's your verbal communication to the homeowners before you start the job that is going to matter. I would say something like, "in my experience it is very common for older homes like yours to experience slow drains after I perform work due to the jostling and shaking that may happen causing movement of built up sludge and debris. Of course, I can't responsible for this situation since it is inherent in the condition of the pipes before I arrived. Here is the number of a guy that I trust should you want to get your drain pipes cleaned".

What I've noticed is that it's amazing what the customer will accept if they are prepared in advance. In my world, cutting their cable or telephone lines is a risk. We get all the utilities marked in advance, but I tell them if the utility is less than 2" deep that there is no way for me to avoid cutting them. Because of the lazy utility installers in my area that often just tuck it under the new sod, we still hit them about 5% of the time. Nobody has ever been upset with me over it.

[Blessed]

since you think that part of the problem is sludge getting knocked loose by the work you are doing (an explanation that makes sense to me!) I think Bill is thinking on the right track - simply explain ahead of time to the homeowner that they have old pipes with sludge buildup and they should have them cleaned to ensure that the drains work properly. State that you don't do that type of work but would be happy to leave them with the name of someone who does or to call and set an appointment for the drain cleaner guy you recommend to come out while you are there with the homeowner. You might even get an agreement worked out with the drain cleaner guy to pay you a referral fee.

[huggytree]

i agree...alittle more communication will help

the last customer i never met...it was through a builder...it wouldnt have helped me w/ them, but may help with most of them

one of the problems is that to cover myself id have to recite 20 different possibilities that could happen while working on their house...old plumbing sucks and most people cant afford the repipe they need.

thanks everyone for all the advice...it helps

[huggytree]

the last job turned out to be drywall gunk inside the drains...a drywaller emptied his bucket into the new sink i installed.

he has been fired and i am back on the good boy list.

[Lyrafire]

Steve B's approach is dead on. It's always better to take a preventative, educational approach rather than an adversarial approach later on. That said, it's true that there are always going to be a few people who try to get something for nothing no matter what you do. In spite of that, I would give every customer with a house more than fifteen years old a verbal (even if you have a written disclaimer) to make sure that they understand that the Sawsall is unavoidably going to jostle loose the natural build-up in their pipes. Explain that it's not always a problem, but once in a while it is is. If so, here are the numbers of three good plumbers.


It's great to add CYA language to your contract, but keep in mind almost nobody will read it before they sign it. I have a very clear, easy to read list of Terms and Conditions on the back of my sales agreement. Right next to their required signature, it says "I agree to the terms and conditions on the reverse side ...". I have had well over a thousand people sign this and exactly two have even turned over the sheet before they signed it. I don't think either of the two read it carefully - they just scanned it briefly.

My point is, the CYA is necessary, but it's for when/if you go to court. It's your verbal communication to the homeowners before you start the job that is going to matter. I would say something like, "in my experience it is very common for older homes like yours to experience slow drains after I perform work due to the jostling and shaking that may happen causing movement of built up sludge and debris. Of course, I can't responsible for this situation since it is inherent in the condition of the pipes before I arrived. Here is the number of a guy that I trust should you want to get your drain pipes cleaned".

What I've noticed is that it's amazing what the customer will accept if they are prepared in advance. In my world, cutting their cable or telephone lines is a risk. We get all the utilities marked in advance, but I tell them if the utility is less than 2" deep that there is no way for me to avoid cutting them. Because of the lazy utility installers in my area that often just tuck it under the new sod, we still hit them about 5% of the time. Nobody has ever been upset with me over it.

[ParaTed2k]

The thing customers are looking for is answers to their problems, few things are more frustrating for a customer than hearing a service provider say something like, 'that's not my fault', or "that's your responsibility". Of course, both answers might be true, but aren't real answers according to the customer.

My first thought was, carry a few bottles of liquid snake type pipe cleaner, if someone complains about drains, hand them one of the bottles. However, I then realized that you are probably talking to them on the phone, because they most likely didn't notice the slow drain while you were still there. Besides, if it doesn't work (which they often don't), then the customer is still blaming you.

Since you said you pipe cleaning isn't part of what you offer, keep a list of plumbers who do offer that. When customers call and complain about the drain, then you can refer one of the ones on your list. That way you are giving the customer a way to get their problem fixed, while not wasting time arguing with them.

I like your idea of letting them know up front (as well as including it in the contract), that way they know it isn't a service you provide, and also that the slow pipe problem is common.