Do bad customers know they are bad, or do they just not care?

[Harold Mansfield]

I have a theory that people know when they are difficult or bad customers. In my experience, there is just a certain type of person that is always on the offensive and will drain every situation till the last drop.

Just like in the service industry, there are difficult or demanding customers that you don't mind so much because they tip good. It's the difficult ones that don't tip that everyone hates.

I do some work without deposits. Mostly little maintenance stuff,and mostly with people I have done business with before.

I have a rule that if you want it now, you pay for it when it's done. Not tomorrow. Not Monday.
When you have inspected the work and it is to your satisfaction, I expect money to change hands immediately. Just as I stated before I started the work.
I am flexible with people that have shown to be reliable. I am not with people that always have an excuse.

My biggest pet peeve is people that want it now, get it, but then miraculously at the time to settle the invoice have something come up where they were out and didn't see the email, or were away for the weekend.

I have decided that this type of customer is never going to pay on time, but they want the service right away. I have also decided that they don't care about your situation or your time, they feel that they can get to you at their convenience because their time is more important than yours.

I've gotten smarter and started sending the invoices at the end of the job, while they are looking over the work. That way I know they are at their computer and see it. But some people are still going to duck it..that's just how they are.
they do eventually pay, but I guess they have to feel like it's on their schedule.

How do you make this type of customer understand that they are a bad customer, without sending them away?
Or do you just stop dealing with them?
Can you turn a bad customer into a good customer when they just don't get it, or don't care?
Do you guys do work without a deposit and still give people days to pay?

[jamesray50]

I worked at an accounting firm for over 14 years and some of the worst clients we had for paying the bills were the wealthiest ones. But when they called or came in, they were treated with the upmost respect because of who they were in the community. It didn't matter that they hadn't paid us yet or how many late statements we sent them. Of course, we always said we weren't going to do any more work for them until they paid, but of course we always did more tax work for them. We didn't want them to be late on filing any returns and then they get mad at us for not telling them that they had some kind of return due. They never took responsibility for things like that. Wealthy people expect other people to look out for them and they expect things to get done when they want them done and they are not going to change.

I know I didn't answer your question and I don't have any clients, but I'm not going to put up with any clients that don't pay me. The first time a client doesn't pay me will be the last time I do any work for them. I haven't thought about the deposit issue. I may require a deposit depending on what service they are hiring me to do.

[Spider]

It probably depends on the type of work you do. If your work is tangible and there is a definite end to it, you will feel the necessity for payment before doing any more work. In my case, I can slow down what I provide during any payment delay. That way I keep the project alive with vey little expenditire of time.

The thought must be - am I better off keeping this person as a client for all the work they bring me and the prestige that comes with having them as a client, or would I be better off dumping them? Better to do $1,000's worth of work for the mayor and not get paid if being a service-provider to the mayor brings you $10,000s worth of work from the mayor's followers.

[Harold Mansfield]

It probably depends on the type of work you do. If your work is tangible and there is a definite end to it, you will feel the necessity for payment before doing any more work. In my case, I can slow down what I provide during any payment delay. That way I keep the project alive with vey little expenditire of time.

The thought must be - am I better off keeping this person as a client for all the work they bring me and the prestige that comes with having them as a client, or would I be better off dumping them? Better to do $1,000's worth of work for the mayor and not get paid if being a service-provider to the mayor brings you $10,000s worth of work from the mayor's followers.

Bringing me referrals or other clients would be one of those considerations as to how I classify them.
I would never sweat a client that has brought me business. Nor would I do $1000 job without a deposit...even if it was the mayor. But I would take a contract with the city in a heartbeat.

I'm talking more about the one timers that stop by every couple of months and want $1000's worth of work for $200 and then take 3 days paying for it.

[Harold Mansfield]

Maybe I'm wrong here but if we discuss the job to be done and I give you the price, and you say O.K.
I say "due at completion". And you say "OK"
I say "when"? And you say "now".

Then I expect to be paid when it's done to your specifications, not next week.

Am I wrong to get upset when they pull that?
It's not a misunderstanding. It's deliberate.

[Emeric]

There is a different type of "bad" customer that irks me, and that is the customer who refuses to take the advice they are paying me for. This customer, while willing to pay for my time, frustrates the poo out me for the sole reason that inefficiency grinds on my momentum, which directly affects the quality of my work and theirs.

I've actually had clients ask me to make changes to their site against my advice, only to have them ask me a few months later why I decided to change their site, at which point they then ask me to change it back to the way I originally had it. I gently try to make them aware of the fact that they originally asked for the change.

It's crazy and it's a great reason to keep notes and records.

[Spider]

Bringing me referrals or other clients would be one of those considerations as to how I classify them.
I would never sweat a client that has brought me business....
... I'm talking more about the one timers that stop by every couple of months and want $1000's worth of work for $200 and then take 3 days paying for it.
Do you guys do work without a deposit and still give people days to pay?
I do work without a deposit, in fact I work for two weeks for free before charging. So, Yes - it happens, but I offer that as part of my service, and then get paid on a monthly basis. The service stops when the money stops, basically.

Not quite the same as your deal, Harold, but it does avoid the frustration you are experiencing.

[Harold Mansfield]

There is a different type of "bad" customer that irks me, and that is the customer who refuses to take the advice they are paying me for. This customer, while willing to pay for my time, frustrates the poo out me for the sole reason that inefficiency grinds on my momentum, which directly affects the quality of my work and theirs.

I've actually had clients ask me to make changes to their site against my advice, only to have them ask me a few months later why I decided to change their site, at which point they then ask me to change it back to the way I originally had it. I gently try to make them aware of the fact that they originally asked for the change.

It's crazy and it's a great reason to keep notes and records.

Unfortunately, I think we all waste quite a bit of time doing that. Sometimes I think it's just a control or confidence thing. So many times I find myself shooting down clients ideas and suggestions because they either aren't sound, or are harmful to the site...and I always explain why they do or don't want to do something. But after 2 or 3 of those in a row, you have to just give them one and realize that you will probably be changing it back anyway. After all it is their project.

"My friend looked at the site and said.." or "A buddy of mine thinks..." is usually a precursor to something that has absolutely nothing to do with any sound design principles, SEO, or marketing.
But you let them have it anyway, let them see why their friend doesn't do this for a living, and after that you don't have to hear about what their friends think anymore.

[Evan]

It didn't matter that they hadn't paid us yet or how many late statements we sent them. Of course, we always said we weren't going to do any more work for them until they paid, but of course we always did more tax work for them.

We had a few clients like that at a past accounting firm. Tax clients were the worst, and often were a year in arrears, and no interest was charged on this outstanding balance even though the engagement letter provided for such. It frustrated me that we did not drop those clients, and did not insist on COD. You don't go to the hair stylist (barber or hairdresser) and say "OK, I'll pay you next month." Payment is due at the time the service is rendered.

For business clients, I think it's important to set a credit limit at which you will be required to bill, and you will not continue working until it is reduced. If you paid $100 (and your hourly rate is say $100), then you can do another hour of work... But at no time, exceed this threshold. You often end up getting burned. If a client wishes to have a larger balance, I'd say you need to consider a security deposit of 50%. So the $5,000 project can have a $2,500 balance outstanding if they've paid $2,500...

Credit card companies limit your spending, why can't you limit the credit you're extending to customers. I also feel that you should be charging interest on unpaid balances. I have uses for the money I'm earning, and had I not wasted time doing your project you aren't paying me on, I could be doing another project earning money I collected now. There is definitely an interest element to the value of your time.

[jamesray50]

Do you turn your clients over to a collection agency for collection? Or do you just write if off as a bad debt expense? The accounting firm I was with didn't turn anyone to a collection agency. We did send out statements. Each accountant was responsible for billing their own clients. I billed for my clients and sent statements if they hadn't paid and stamped PAST DUE on it. But we still kept doing monthly work for them. Even if they were behind. Only occassionaly did we stop doing anything for a client that didn't pay. We were considered a small business, but the managing partner was able to put money in the business if we ran short on cash towards the end of the year.

Most small businesses don't have resources to fund their bank account if clients don't pay. So it is very important to decide how much your allowance for bad debts is going to be and not go over that amount. That should be part of your budget.

[Harold Mansfield]

I do my own collections. Collection agencies are ridiculously abrasive and have a low success rate because of it. I'd rather not have them represent me. I'd consider that a definite loss of a client, and if I need to stop doing business with someone, I'd rather it be on my terms and in my own words., not have some 3rd party hound them everyday.

So far I haven't lost one and have been able to smooth over any hiccups and get paid. I've only had to deal with it 2 times and both were the same, the client taking my time for granted and making their own payment arrangement instead of asking.
So far the threat of adding a penalty to the invoice has worked and they miraculously came up with the payment on the same day.

[huggytree]

i never ask for a downpayment...i even warn customers to stay away from those that do.

When i work for a homeowner i demand payment when the job is complete (same day)...i dont leave the house w/o it..its never been an issue except once. I followed him back into his house. he tried to renegiotate the price after it was done. He lives in the same subdivision as some of the Green Bay Packers and he was fighting w/ me over a $250 job. i got paid, but he tried every tactic on me..finally i said 'in 2 minutes you will owe me for another 15 minutes'..the check came 1 minute later

i am a hard ass when it comes to collecting from builders...ive been ripped on on this website for my views on collections....4 years in business and i never lost $1. oh yea my homeowner sales are now up 110 percent for 2010...so my tactics dont hurt me at all

are their customers who try to steal from you...yes...how do you avoid them? charge atleast a mid level and let them know you mean business....they will avoid you and pick an easier target.....i send prelien notices to every job over $5k..it costs me $44 out of my pocket, but its scary and they know to pay me first.

i had a customer 2 months ago who couldnt find his check book...he asked ' what do you want? should i go to the bank?'....my reply..' lets go'...he packed up his 2 kids and went to the ATM.....he actually called me back for a 2nd job...this time he had a check....an honest person will pay you on the spot...ive followed 2 customers to ATM's to get paid over 4 years

[huggytree]

another thing you may need to learn is not to ever be despirate...the bad customers always come to me when im slow...ive turned work away because i can tell things arent right..the few times ive actually taken the work guess what happened? i had problems collecting and the customer was horrible...

so part of your problem could failure to recognise a bad customer and skip them...some keep calling me...i had to put a few on my phone and list them as BAD...ive had some call me 1 year later, but when i saw BAD i didnt answer.

[Harold Mansfield]

i never ask for a downpayment...i even warn customers to stay away from those that do.....
i had a customer 2 months ago who couldnt find his check book...he asked ' what do you want? should i go to the bank?'....my reply..' lets go'...he packed up his 2 kids and went to the ATM.....he actually called me back for a 2nd job...this time he had a check....an honest person will pay you on the spot...ive followed 2 customers to ATM's to get paid over 4 years

I'm sure that you understand that those of us that work online can't do business like that. For the most part, I never meet or see my customers, don't really know where they are and probably couldn't physically find them even if I traveled to the address that I have for them.

I do see or have heard that many contractors ask for money up front to cover expenses or supplies. Isn't that the norm? Or is it different with plumbers?

[Harold Mansfield]

another thing you may need to learn is not to ever be despirate...the bad customers always come to me when im slow...ive turned work away because i can tell things arent right..the few times ive actually taken the work guess what happened? i had problems collecting and the customer was horrible...

so part of your problem could failure to recognise a bad customer and skip them...some keep calling me...i had to put a few on my phone and list them as BAD...ive had some call me 1 year later, but when i saw BAD i didnt answer.

Ha! Ain't that the truth. Desperate money never comes out right. Ever.

[huggytree]

very few plumbers ask for down payment

builders/remodelers do though...thats where the crimes begin and why they have the bad rep.

they take the down payment, show up once and never show up again.....thats why i dont ask for one...when the job is complete i show them the work and hand them the bill....'could you please sign here and write the check out to Waukesha Plumbing'


why do the bad customers always call when your slow...thats the mystery i want to solve...when i busy its like every call is great...as soon as i get slow i go back to getting 1 out of 10...its all cold callers...the referral calls come when its busy.....it just got slow around here and thats what im getting...all price shoppers wasting my time...i started to not pick up the phone immediately anymore this past week...i get back to multiple phone calls at noon and 4pm...otherwise im answering my phone all day for price shoppers

[greenoak]

i cant imagine doing service for someone....since our thing, THANKFULLY, is cash and carry.... ...but as a user i hate creative people who think they know just what is wanted in 10 minutes.... that just cant happpen on any big project... i hate yea yea yea...when they really arent soaking it up....it really takes time to GET the persons idea of the job and then make it work out right......thats the important thing.........maybe you didnt really get what the person deeply hoped for.... just a wild guess... but it sure happens, especially when uninformed people hire computer folks.... ...somehow you have to put yourself into their whole vision of the thing, and what they really want.......and of course some things wont work, but you have to really go there and explain...
im in retail andi have to spend lots of time sometimes for a small or no sale...that time is just part of doing business to me...i cant rush them even tho i would like to....but if i really get/ understand their room or situation, it sure is appreciated....

a teeny example from when we built....i wanted a kind of particular thing on the gutter...and the builder's version turned out like a sore thumb to me, not him....i just couldnt stand it and he was gracious and redid it without making me feel bad...i thought he knew the classical thing i was drawing out...he thought he knew all about gutter corners.... it happens...
that was the only thing i changed and we paid on the agreed schedule....

[Harold Mansfield]

It's tough to get an accurate picture of what people want because most times, they only have a partial picture.
Very few of my clients ever have a complete picture, layout, content, or idea of what kind of website they want. They usually are focused on cool features and functions like Facebook connect, but really no agenda for what they want the website to do or what kind of information they want to provide for the reader or to attract new clients.

It's usually a step by step process and it's usually after I get everything all set up and show them how empty it is that they realize "Oh crap, I need to write something and I have no pictures, logo...nothing!".
I'm usually the one that has to tell them about their business and who they are and direct them to put content together.

I have a client right now that I had to Google to find out just simple information about him for his "About Page".
When people have it all together..content, images, branding materials and direction (or at least understand that they need to create it or have it created)...it usually ends up a much better website.

[greenoak]

for sure and thats a great accomplishment....but you also have to know if they want to look like hallmark, mad men, a hippie commune or maragaritaville and what their actual priorities are...and you have to be able to communicate if they want this feature to work great its going to cost xxxx... too many just say yes to way too much..and dont get the right image across....
.i wouldnt want to try it...same with doing interior designs for a client..., i dont see how they do it....it must take a lot of empathy and listening skills...