When the customer tries to run the show

[Harold Mansfield]

"The customer is always right" is completely over rated. Even when I was in Customer Service, the customer was not always right and I didn't give in to rants and intimidation tactics.

What is not overrated is the phrase "A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing"...and that brings us to our story today.

I can deal with teaching and consulting with people when they don't know.
I love answering questions.
I''m very happy when clients ask my opinion before doing something that they have no clue about.

What I can't deal with is when someone hires me to do a job and then they take what they think they have learned from a couple of outdated 5 minute articles and what their friends told them and then attempt to micro manage the technical aspects of the job.

Even after I explain the technical reasons why it won't work, some people still insist that we "try it", even thought they have actually never done it. It's just how they think other people do it.

When I give a price for a job, it's usually a flat rate. That means that I have already figured how long it's going to take me to do it, and what materials or licenses I need to pay for.
It doesn't include experimentation and trying out theories. When you start throwing in monkey wrenches like that, it is no longer your time...it's mine that you are wasting.

I lose patients with these type of people. I feel that I should only have to explain it twice before you trust that I know what I'm talking about.

IMO, if you want to do it your way, even though you have no idea how to do it and have never done it before, then you should do it yourself.

Am I wrong? Or is my temper too short with these types of "clients".

[Spider]

I think, if you have to ask, then your temper is probably too short - not so much for the client, but for you. Raised temper suggests stress, and negative stress like this is a rather unhealthy condition. Unless it happens rarely, in which case, a little stress now and then might be a good thing.

I have often heard professionals complain about someone hiring them as an expert and then not letting them get on with doing what they know is best. I tend to think that is up to the person hiring - it's their money to spend or waste as they see fit. If the professional won't allow them to do that, step aside and let someone else who is a little more tolerant, do the job.

But whatever you choose, don't lose your temper over it.

[Harold Mansfield]

Well my perception is, if you are going to change the way I do things after I have given you your price, then you have just changed the price. Most people don't want to agree to that and don't understand that they are adding hours to the way it's normally done and the process that I have streamlined to get it done quickly.

I have stepped aside in the past..returned a portion of the deposit and told them to find someone else that will tell you what you want to hear because it cannot be done like that.

Most things are flexible, and I can make subtle changes on the fly (heck, I've made big changes on the fly)...but what we are talking about here is people wanting to change the way the internet works. I'm not talking about little stuff...I mean things like how SQL databases work, or how long it takes a DNS change to propagate. Those type of things.

Those are the ones that are frustrating because they (the client) is speaking from what seems to be common sense, and not from a position of actually knowing how things work.
Those are really hard to turn around when their mind is made up that they know what they are talking about.

[Spider]

Quite so, but whatever you choose, don't lose your temper over it. It's not worth it.

[billbenson]

Well, you picked an industry that has these kinds of issues. Thats one reason why I would never want to do web design for other people. The perceptions people have that a web site can be built for a few hundred dollars, back yard mechanics such as your example etc.

So, as its part of your chosen career, you really need to figure out a way to "deal" with it on a consistant basis...

[Harold Mansfield]

It's not often. In fact it's so abnormal that one in a while stands out and lingers for a few days. Most people have questions. That's normal. And most things that people want...actually everything that anyone wants can be done. But I can't change the way the internet, or how servers work.

[huggytree]

i have had customers (typically engineers) who ask me about every fitting as i put their plumbing together....one even had a plumbing drawing for me...he wanted me to run the plumbing exactly how he planned....i typically over bid these jobs (as does every other plumber)....i also typically win these jobs because engineers are an easy sell for my quality parts/practices speech i give before i leave the bid......i hate working for them....

the customer hires me because of my reputation, so i expect them to leave me alone and let me do my job...when they pull up a chair and discuss the job with me for 8 hours while im working i hate it....i always screw up more....

bottom line...ill do it exactly how they want it, but i charge extra for it....ive spent 14 years learning how to do my job the best..i know what works and what doesnt....if they think they know better, so be it.......

once in a while the customer is too extreme and i decline the work....

[greenoak]

i can imagine all this...but i would be firm and say this isnt what i agreed to...if you want me by the hour or to try out everything we can throw the agreement away and im 100$$ an hour... or whatever...
you have to be firm....like my contractor for our house...i knew from the start if there were any changes i would be paying dearly....it wasnt a grey area....there were areas where i would be able to come in...like a 10K$$$ carpet allowance etc etc... but i knew his terms and definitly respected them...
i have this with my computer people.but they are in house......and as the user i have to hear what they are telling me...is it impossible or is it possible with 2 hrs more work.... or ...ESPECIALLY . does it muck up something important....or are they trying to do the easiest thing even tho it looks like crap....and im sure sometimes they dread hearing what my internet buddies have to say about things!!!lol...
being clear and firm at the start is the main thing...and thats why i would hate to do service...

i always have to throw in that most of us out here in the world have heard of really half baked computer jobs at big money... ....and we cant really judge very well....jobs that were so messed up at the start....where the buyer thought they were getting a bid for something way beyond what the provider was going to be giving them... and it really is a mess and way too common..

[Harold Mansfield]

I am conscious of that. I know people, especially if it's their first time, are scared to death of getting a crappy job or a lazy service person that won't go the extra mile to make them happy.
That's the burden of doing web work. Many before me have ripped people off, or overcharged... never to be seen again.
You have to ease those fears right away, and I'm usually pretty good at getting past that.

It's the ones that have a little knowledge..just enough to use some terminology, that are the hardest ones to calm down and make understand that I can't change how the internet works because you don't feel like doing it that way, or read something 4 years ago that is obsolete.

[Reflo Ltd]

My main area of business for the past 20+ years has been construction. I have learned to kill them with kindness. It works so much better than getting frustrated. However, you have to know how to be kind yet firm, if that makes any sense.

I know exactly what you mean about the customer that watched too many episodes of a DIY show... or read an article about it... or heard from a neighbor or relative how to do it, even though that neighbor or relative never did it... lol

[Harold Mansfield]

I know exactly what you mean about the customer that watched too many episodes of a DIY show... or read an article about it... or heard from a neighbor or relative how to do it, even though that neighbor or relative never did it... lol

Ugh! "My friend said".."My brother said.." ... "I heard"..and "I remember seeing/reading somewhere that..." are the beginnings of totally useless conversations with that type.
I've only lost one, so that's not too bad. And that was because at the time I had a lot of work and people waiting for me to get to them, so I just decided it had already wasted too much time when there was no official agreement and I had birds in the hand waiting.

It's really hard to keep cool about it when you are 5 days past the point that you would have been done, if they would stop fighting you on technical issues that they can't even pronounce.
Most of the time I'll let them have something. You can't just keep saying no to people even if their ideas are not technically sound. You have to let them feel like they are in control.

Sounds like I just take over and don't let the client provide any input. That's not it. They have complete access to me before during and after and I will do what ever they want.
Sometimes it's just hard to get them to believe that what they saw/read back in the 90's is really going to make their site suck or that I really do need to point the domain to the proper DNS in order to install the software on it and the correct server.

[greenoak]

i hear you harold...its totally that way in antiques too..they believe the highest price, when trying to sell, no matter if it came from the hairdresser......everyone is an expert.... or they are in the rough!!!! room...where the crappiest furniture is...and want it cheaper becasue there is some problem with it..DUH!!! I TAKE IT WITH A SENSE OF HUMOR... OR TRY TO...and stick to my rules...as much as i can....
as pete says ...kind but firm....thats a good way to put it...

[Harold Mansfield]

Ha! I see that when I watch Pawn Stars. They'll have something appraised and then they ask the customer "So how much do you want to sell it for" and they always shoot for the high end, perfect economy, retail price. It's hilarious. Some even tack on a made up future valuation.
I saw a guy once say "If you hold on to it for another year, you'll probably get $XXXX for it, so I'll take that".
Too funny.
I actually learn from that show. watching him get people back to reality and accept a fair price is pretty cool.
I'm sure they don't all go that smoothly...just the ones that make it on T.V.

[thewebwriter]

I've had a few like that in the past and this is how I get round it.

I always explain what I am going to do and why I do something a certain way. This creates the basis of the contract. Most clients accept this, value the fact I am being open with them and pleased to have defined deliverable's. I'm not giving away trade secrets, I'm letting my clients know that I know my job.

Then you get the other 1% who know better. The majority are squashed in the bidding or contract signing stage.

Of those who come in later to make a change, I usually start with "are you sure" which may be followed up with "That's certainly an interesting idea. How much do your comparison figures differ from the conventional approach? etc."

or "What were the benefits of doing it that way?"

or "Oh, let me see how you did this last time"

if they still insist:

"We can certainly do it that way if you are absolutely sure but you do realise it will cost more in the long run, we will also need to renegotiate the contract for the extra time involved and I need a Release from Blame clause added."

Most have succumbed to my approach and I think I only had one back out. He still has the same yuk site he had four years ago, in fact he has three domains all with the same content. How's that for duplicity?

Once they realise the responsibility is theirs if things go awry, they usually back out.

[Harold Mansfield]

I totally see the approach and am usually very good at it.
In the one instance that really set me off ( and I hate to be specific, but I think it makes the point), the client is telling me that they don't want to forward their domain to the proper DNS until I build the site, then they'll forward it so that it goes live.

Well, I spent a few emails trying to explain that it can't be done like that. The software is reliant on the domain, server and SQL database all being live and in the same place (especially when building a multi user network) . I can't install on a domain that is on another server. There is nothing that I can install anywhere and you can't point the domain after the fact becasue there won't be anything to point it to.

I spent 3 days of emails explaining this. I could have finished the whole thing in 3 days.
I'm talking about those kinds of things. They want to change the way the internet works.

It's enough to make you want to pull your hair out.
It's like trying to explain to someone that they can't run their car on vegetable oil without making some modifications and they keep telling you that you are wrong. At some point you just want to say, "OK, fine. Go ahead and fill it up with Crisco."

[Reflo Ltd]

I love watching Pawn Stars. It is an amazing spectacle of human nature and the negotiation process.

Here is what facinates me the most... customer brings in item, pawn shop calls in expert, expert gives value right in front of customer, customer now wants near full value, pawn shop still is typically able to give half of the value to the customer.

The Old Man and Rick are definitely masters of the negotiating process. The son not so much.

One of my favorite things on earth is negotiating.... or haggling. I have a book, the title escapes me at the moment, that states that the seven most powerful words you can use are "is that the best you can do?" I am not afraid to use it anywhere, even at a large retailer. You'd be surprised at how much you can save this way.

And here is one more excellent piece of negotiating advice. Once you make your offer or position on a matter clear... and you are awaiting a response from the other side... keep your mouth shut. I was told once that in a negotiation (post offer or ultimatum), the first one to talk loses. Sometimes when you make that offer and shut your mouth, it feels like an eternity waiting for the reply, but keep cool and stay silent. And another important aspect to this is never to say too much. Keep to the point in a negotiation. Be succinct and confident and know ahead of time what your bottom line is.

[Spider]

...I have a book, the title escapes me at the moment, that states that the seven most powerful words you can use are "is that the best you can do?" ....If you like books on negotiating, you can't get much better than anything by Roger Dawson. One of the best phrases I got from him is, "If I do that for you, what will you do for me?" Here's why I like this especially--

1. It's only natural to try to get more from your opponent without giving up anything yourself. But that's not negotiating, that's pressuring, and the result, if any result ensues, leaves the other party as the loser. That's not good negotiating. Good negotiating is where both parties win.

2. The question, "If I do that for you, what will you do for me?" leaves open the possibility that you will give what they asked for, provided what they offer you for it is worth your while. If it is, you both gain more than you give up - a true win-win.

[greenoak]

win win is so good !!!! i negotiate all the time..its part of our business.... and ok with me....
i see the bad side too... the takkiest thing is when a looker negotiates a price with me and then doesnt take it.....i never understand that...and they will never get my best price again..
another hard one is when they are buying several pieces and negotiate on each...thats ok....but then at the end they want a bulk price on top.....
a horrible example last week was this pathetic guy who just wouldnt take our price and his wife wanted the thing bad...but we said no and a couple of hours later the young guys father called and said he would pay us the extra 20$$ under the table and for us just to say yes to the guy....so they came back and bought the 500 worth of stuff....
our background is so much in this culture...and coming down a little i think has seemed really neat and unusual to our new customers who arent really antiquers...i think its helped us...

[Blessed]

You mean you have customers who don't try to run the show? :D

Print design is different than web design - but I deal with some of that too. I normally do the whole.... ooohhh you want to do that? Well.... it's gonna cost you a few more arms and legs, still interested? routine and it usually works. Of course I do what the client asks for anyway, but sometimes when the work is done and they've finally shown it to their second ex's, third cousin's, grandmother who thinks it would look better if we just... that's when I start tacking on extra charges.

I try to deflect excessive suggestions/requests from clients but sometimes it isn't possible. So now - I state up front that the quoted charges include X, Y and Z with two rounds of corrections and additional changes will be charged extra depending on what those changes are. It helps. I also do the whole killing them with kindness thing and that works too.

[Spider]

i hear you harold...its totally that way in antiques too..they believe the highest price, when trying to sell, no matter if it came from the hairdresser......everyone is an expert.... or they are in the rough!!!! room...where the crappiest furniture is...and want it cheaper becasue there is some problem with it..DUH!!! I TAKE IT WITH A SENSE OF HUMOR... OR TRY TO...and stick to my rules...as much as i can....I don't know how much you mark things down because they are in the Crappy Room but would it work to mark everything as you would if it was in good condition (or as good as one would expect for antique) - let's say $500 - and label it, "Would be $500. What will you offer?"

That gets them in the game - "Making Business Fun!" - tells the customer a realistic value if it was in better condition, tells them that it is - or will be - marked down because it is not in the best condition, and invites them to bargain. Once they have started bargaining (and who could resist such an invitation, knowing they will not be rejected?) they are kinda locked in to buy it when you reach a point where you can say, "Okay! I'll accept that! How will you pay? Check? Credit card?"

Making business fun. Psychologically locking in a buyer who might otherwise stay on the sideline. Shows the buyer how much of a saving they are making. Gives the buyer the upper hand and thus makes them feel good when they "win" the negotiation.

And if you ever get two buyers bargaining against each other, you could have so much fun you'd be laughing all the way to the bank!

[greenoak]

oh spider....that would be chaos!.... and the workers w ould be bugging me all day to see if the offered price was ok....
as a buyer of service i would maybe be bad...but about the art part not about the how it works part.... if a designer dismissed the art part as easy etc i would be scared off.... the art is sooooo important ...and in my world the ones able to do the tekk work cant see the art at all and dont get that part....they cant tell dolly parton from english country...etc etc... or on the shelves they would put a 1940 piece next to a 1890 piece...
we seem to have about 3 groups in our place...the geeks...the fluffers and the floppers..... and we all try to get along and respect each other....but we dont let geeks figure out the look of anything...or the floppers cant pick the spots to flop in or the fluffers cant figure the safest way to carry....etc etc etc..
.spider for fun at work our favorite flopper does get help from our starr fluffer once in a great while and then there are jokes about her, the fluffer, breaking a nail....and everyone knows not to ask the dh where anything goes...or if anything looks ok...

[Harold Mansfield]

Now I'm not sure what's worse, this, or when a client drags a project out for weeks. There is nothing worse than being ready to finish on time and having it take 3x's as long becasue they didn't have their crap together.
It's not more work exactly, but when it's dragged out over a month (when it was supposed to be 10 days) , shouldn't it be more money?

[sharepointlex]

Hello eborg

Hehe, when I read your post, a post I stumbled upon recently immediately popped into my mind.

It is about how Web-Designs go "to Hell" by customers requesting "minor changes". Very funny. And very true.

How a Web Design Goes Straight to Hell - The Oatmeal (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell)

Have a good one!

[Reflo Ltd]

So Sharepointlex... did you buy the poster?

[sharepointlex]

So Sharepointlex... did you buy the poster?

no, right now I haven't got a lot of spare money for this kind of stuff.
but i am sure this guy is not short on merchandise sales. this comic alone has like 80000 facebook shares and 110000 stumbles.
incredible what you can do online when you have good ideas.
but well, thats another topic.

cheers!

[Harold Mansfield]

Hello eborg

Hehe, when I read your post, a post I stumbled upon recently immediately popped into my mind.

It is about how Web-Designs go "to Hell" by customers requesting "minor changes". Very funny. And very true.

How a Web Design Goes Straight to Hell - The Oatmeal (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell)

Have a good one!

Yeah, Ive seen that. Funny stuff.
If only it were as simple as those things.
This project has gone horribly wrong and both sides are now on edge. Most of it is because they didn't let me do my job, and it has caused horrible and unnecessarily delays and tech issues that could have been avoided had they given me all of the information and stepped out of the way.

It's probably safe to say that not only is this a loss, but it will probably be my first unhappy client because I am at my wits end with the lack of information and communication delays.

[KristineS]

It's probably safe to say that not only is this a loss, but it will probably be my first unhappy client because I am at my wits end with the lack of information and communication delays.

This sort of thing is so frustrating! If the client had only listened and let you do your job, so much of this could have been avoided. Dealing with people is tough sometimes. I've never understood why someone would hire an expert and then interfere, but people do it all the time.

[Spider]

A last ditch attempt to save the day. Ask disgruntled client how they think you can redeem the situation - "This isn't going right. You aren't happy and neither am I. I want to make it right. What exactly can I do for you, to solve the problem?"

Then keep quiet and let him talk. Don't say anything until he stops talking. Summarize what he wants. Don't try to put your own spin on it, just get a complete understanding of what he wants, even if it is impossible. Often, when you confirm the impossible back to someone, they see how impossible it really is and adjust. Also, it is sometimes amazing how little it will take to resolve the issue. But you won't know either of these until you ask, then confirm and get agreement as to what is wanted.

That eliminates everything else. You now have a clear picture of the solution. Now, you can discuss how you can achieve it, or how much of it you can achieve. As long as you are trying to discuss simultaneously the problem and the solution, confusion will reign. Separate theproblem from the solution and order is restored. And you'll both end up happy.

I hope this helps.

[Harold Mansfield]

That would be great if I could actually talk to somebody.
The primary has been unavailable and "busy" since second week of December ( the one with all of the information and decision power). It's a constant excuse. I have actually never talked to him. He's always "away" or "traveling" or " at a conference".

It's almost like the story line from "9 to 5" with Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda and Lilly Tomlin.
All of my communications are through a secretary who knows nothing technical, relays the message and then hours later, sometimes over a day...I get his response through her...and do another 20 minutes of work based on that response.

During the original delay, I didn't hear from them for 2 weeks.
This was contracted, and proposed at a flat rate with a 5 day finish time.

As we used to say in the Army, it's F.U.B.A.R.

[Blessed]

At this point I'd send an email to the primary outlining where the project is, what you still need from them and informing them that you are suspending work on the project until they are able to provide the answers you need. Use bullet points, specific requests and a 1-2-3 approach. If you haven't heard a response within three days I'd send an invoice for the work you've done. If they paid you half up front I'd go ahead and bill them for half of what they still owe you. State that you are having to table the project due to other projects but will be happy to work them in again when they have their info ready but may have to amend the initial quote to account for the additional time.

[Harold Mansfield]

At this point I'd send an email to the primary outlining where the project is, what you still need from them and informing them that you are suspending work on the project until they are able to provide the answers you need. Use bullet points, specific requests and a 1-2-3 approach. If you haven't heard a response within three days I'd send an invoice for the work you've done. If they paid you half up front I'd go ahead and bill them for half of what they still owe you. State that you are having to table the project due to other projects but will be happy to work them in again when they have their info ready but may have to amend the initial quote to account for the additional time.

Right on target! I sent the email this morning spelling out exactly where we are and what's keeping it from being done.
This is day 3 of "he's going to give you a call", and nothing of the sort...not even a quick note to schedule a call has happened.
I sent the invoice for the final bill already, stating that it is requested to keep their project a priority.

I also looked at my website. Turns out I do have a line in my T.O.S regarding excessive time overruns that are the fault of the client and I referred to it when pointing out that I'm not doing that (billing for the additional time).
Basically it was a "respect my time, as I have respected yours".

Like I said, a couple of days here and there or at least some communication of what the issues are...and I'm fine. But to completely string me along for weeks with no explanation or communication other than an occasional "can you change this color?" passed down by the secretary, and then nothing for a couple more days. Not happening.

[sharepointlex]

It's probably safe to say that not only is this a loss, but it will probably be my first unhappy client..

The worst experiences often are the ones that value the most and help you move forward, so don't worry about this ONE unhappy client. The whole story will help you make the upcoming ones more happy.
Same as with girls really :-)

Cheers!

[Harold Mansfield]

Unfortunately, that is a personality flaw of mine. I DO worry about one unhappy client. I don't want any. I don't expect to be close friends with anyone but, I would still like them to appreciate the job whether we have butted heads or not.
A website is something that they will see and use and get comments on for the life of their business. Everyday is a constant reminder of who built it for them.
At the very least I'd like them to still be happy with the job and the price that they paid for it.

[Blessed]

Don't write it off as a total loss yet - you might still be surprised in a good way with the final outcome of this project. I've had a few that I've worried about and it's worked out fine in the end. At the same time... if it doesn't work out you will have at least learned a bit from this experience.

[Reflo Ltd]

Unfortunately, that is a personality flaw of mine. I DO worry about one unhappy client. I don't want any.

I do the same thing.... I even find myself still fretting over a clinet that maybe had a single complaint on a larger otherwise perfect project (whether or not it was justified). I've been told I am a people pleaser. I've also been told less flattering things about me.... lol.

I also tend to be a bit OCD on details/perfection.... which I am trying to be a bit more relaxed on. Not that I don't want things to be right but sometimes I obsess over things that would not be relavent to or noticed by anyone else.

I suppose that we could have a lot worse traits to be concerned about than these.

[KristineS]

Unfortunately, when you're in business, or just going through your daily life you will encounter people who are made unhappy by you in some fashion or another. It's just a fact of life. All you can do is what's in your power to make people happy. Beyond that, you just have to let it go.

[Harold Mansfield]

Couple of phrases were just recently said to me that made me think of this thread and made me cringe:

1. "It should be easy" which was actually followed by, "It should only take you a few minutes".
I should add that the "It should be easy" comment was becuase they "helped me out and saved me time" by installing the files for me, instead of just sending them to me like I asked. Took me 10 hours to find out why the installation wasn't working properly. If they had just let me do it like they were supposed to be paying me for, it would have taken 10 minutes.


2. "Make it pop!"...that could mean any of a million things and it still won't be what they are imagining, but not expressing verbally.