wow! What your website says can make a huge difference

[huggytree]

i redid my website around a year ago now....i looked at my sales increase from it....200percent!!!

i went from a blah website written by someone else to one that focuses on quality..i get no price shoppers anymore from it....every call i get i win

i used to think the internet was worthless....since i only got 1-3 jobs a year from it... now im getting 10+ jobs a year....its still not much, but when you consider referrals those 10 jobs add up year after year....

im getting a few thousand from it...

at the same time im getting completely out of the phone book....im not even going to have my name listed anymore....the only book im using is the small local one and that one im going all out in.

the phone book advertising seems to be going up in price...i dont get it...they should be going down in price to keep advertisers

[Patrysha]

That is so great to hear!! It's stories like that that really sell the concept of copy being important to small business owners. Making a few thousand off of something that costs $60/yr to maintain is nothing...even if you do have to spend a bit more than that for words and updates and such...

While I think you could have redesigned your phone book ads to get more response...I do think the day of the pages is over and the value is going to diminish rapidly in the coming years. It will still have some value as long as old people with money still use it...but once they pass on it who's going to be left to use it?

[vangogh]

Congrats. Those of us who work on the web know how effective a good site can be. I think too many people put up the cheapest site they can and when it doesn't work conclude the web won't work for their business. The truth is usually that their site isn't working, not that the web can't work. Moving from 1-3 jobs a year to 10+ easily pays for the cost of a good website.

You probably could improve your phone book ads too. I would think some people still check the phone book first when looking for some local business. You may though want to think more about local search. I forget whether or not you have a Google Places page (if you had a page in Google Maps it's not called a Places page). Local search is replacing the phone book. If you don't have a Places page definitely sign up for one. Do the same with Bing and Yahoo local search. When you have a happy customer try to get them to write a quick review on your Places page. Also try to get some local sites like the Chamber of Commerce to link to your website. A few good links from sites local to yours should help both your site and your Places page rank better, the latter will likely rank better with some reviews too.

[huggytree]

i get google alerts and another guy is trying to get some of my customers

he used my website name and added 'heatingandcooling' at the end of it...

another used .net

i think a friend who i unfriended may be using my name as a keyword for Adwords(ive done it too)

im #1 and #5 on Google

any way i could be 1,2,3,4,5???



i

[greenoak]

it must be a heck of a site!!!! good for you....when they start copying you you know you are onto something good..
guess i better google google alerts...we dont use that....thanks for the internet advice!!!!

[huggytree]

it must be a heck of a site!!!! good for you....when they start copying you you know you are onto something good..
guess i better google google alerts...we dont use that....thanks for the internet advice!!!!

the important thing about the google alerts is that it lets you know who is using or talking about your company name.....if someone gives you a neg. review somewhere you can counteract it.....for me it lets me know who's trying to confuse my customers by copying my website address.....i chose the name of a city/county as my company name because i wanted anyone looking for a plumber with a city name behind it to find me first....so its a popular thing to copy....the one who did my exact website address .net even put his title of his page as MY COMPANY NAME....at the bottom he said 'xxx plumbing call xxx-xxxx'...i felt he was trying to confuse my customers.....he has since changed it....i considered looking into legal action against him

everyone should have Google Alerts...its free and works well

[Dan Furman]

Yup - what your websites says matters a TON. It's logical, really.

Glad you see the light, Huggy!! :)

[greenoak]

huggy....how was it different? and how did you find the right person to do it? what do you think made it work so well?
ann

[cbscreative]

I'm glad you discovered the power of a good web presence, huggy. I know for a fact that the vast majority of contractors are way behind the curve in this arena, but I've also observed a huge shift over the last year or two where even the "old guys" who had no interest in a web site are waking up. Most opt for a cheap, useless site, but they are at least beginning to see the value as they find themselves getting buried when they have nothing. Since you are already ahead of them, you can more easily keep your lead.

There is one interesting pattern with YP though. I'll agree that for most businesses, it is dead. I'll also agree they should reduce the rates to reflect the diminishing ROI, but they don't seem to have enough integrity for that. But plumbing is one of those services where YP is not dead yet, and it's way too early to predict its demise. There are still many people of all ages that grab the phone book in an "emergency" situation.

The real issue with YP is not whether it works for some businesses, it's more likely the principle vangogh pointed to. It's the way you advertise that makes the difference. Many if not most times, those who claim something doesn't work used it incorrectly and failed to recognize they were the ones at fault. Plumbers make a great example for YP because some claim it doesn't work at all while others get great response from it.

[vangogh]

any way i could be 1,2,3,4,5???

Yes. Basically you have to put more into seo. You can work to get other pages of your site to rank well for your business name. You might try opening up profiles on different social sites with your business name as the username or at least mentioned prominently somewhere. You'd probably need to be somewhat active with the profiles to get them to rank and stay ranked, but it's possible.

[tylerhutchinson]

Great to hear. Yes quality of a site says a lot about you and your company. Think of it this way, if you do not want to spend time on your own company, what makes your potential customers think about the work you will do for them!?

So many companies depend on referrals also so glad to hear that you are getting business that way as well. Regardless of all the technology, word of mouth is still the most valuable marketing you can have!

[huggytree]

huggy....how was it different? and how did you find the right person to do it? what do you think made it work so well?
ann

i am on my 3rd version of my website

the first version was a $650 1 page piece of crap by my wifes sister-inlaw...it was horrible...she bragged about being a web designer and in the end i over paid and didnt get what she originally said she would do....and because it was a relative i didnt know what to do

my 2nd version i paid $1500...i went to a pro who does all the contractors in the area...i also paid $200 for someone to write something good....i was somewhat happy...it was blah.....no character on most of the pages....

my 3rd version was free because the web designer never linked the e-mail to me...i wrote it all myself....i decided to make myself look and sound expensive...i went for the Quality and Value(paying more for better) approach...i added a page called 'saving money'...its all about paying more and getting more....its not about being cheap and saving money...

Waukesha Plumbing - Residential Plumbing in Southeastern Wisconsin. Serving Waukesha, Milwaukee Counties (http://www.waukeshaplumbing.com)

its not perfect and i probably will be changing it again soon...the main page is too busy

$1,000-1500 in sales last year to $5,000 this year.

my recommendation...try to be different...when i check out my competition its easy to see why i stand out...i actually say something on my website....the other websites really say nothing...blah,blah,blah.....i get very good response from customers when i discuss what they thought about my website and my philosophy towards business

[vangogh]

my recommendation...try to be different...when i check out my competition its easy to see why i stand out

Pretty much standard practice for web designers or should be at least. I always start a new design by spending a couple days going through the sites of the competition and making notes. You get a good feel for the things you probably need to include, but even better what the competition is failing to do and what you can do.

By the way being different from the competition also works where search results are concerned. It's not a bad idea to read the snippets below the links in the results and then write a meta description that stands out. Even if you don't rank first you might still entice more clicks.

@Ann - You do know there are plenty of people here who design websites. If you're looking to have your site redone why not start with the people here?

[billbenson]

@Ann - You do know there are plenty of people here who design websites. If you're looking to have your site redone why not start with the people here?

I agree with that statement or at least that this is a good place to start your search. The web designers who have been around here for a while have developed a respect from their peers and clients. It doesn't mean they are the best match for what you want or need, but at least you can feel comfortable knowing the personality, skills etc if you have been reading these posts for a number of years.

If you don't want to use someone here for whatever reason, I would suggest contracting with someone here to help find you a good designer. Eborg and VG specialize in WordPress sites. Maybe you don't want a WP site. I submit that using either of them or other designers here can help you find a designer that meets your needs. If you don't have the design skills to know how to make a site, you probably don't know how to find a good designer.

If you don't know web design, selecting a web designer is really throwing darts in the dark.

If you want to use someone local, I'd say why. The odds of the best designer for your site being local to you are remote.

[greenoak]

vg, .. ..we already redid our site early this year.....kind of like huggy, in house...
. and its brought in lots of new buyers...and lots of good feedback..... and it got the feel i wanted...so no, im not looking for any help...
.always curious tho about how businesses go about finding their way on the internet.... huggys story is pretty neat...

[vangogh]

Oh got'cha. When you asked huggy about who did his site I thought you were thinking of redoing yours and looking. I was thinking Steve (cbscreative) might be a good fit for you. I have a feeling you'd like what he would come up for you.

[greenoak]

thanks .im sure he would be great.......i have always enjoyed eborgs work...hes out there on the wild side!!!!
i do wish i could get wordpress....but my web person thinks it would be too hard for her.....
mine is expressing our brand in about the way i want it to...and i think it does look different...our site has always been a big big draw ..i think its about 8 or 10 yrs old...
ideally, i would really like something outstanding like a cross between eborgs music site and that magnolia pearl site i posted about on here a while back........

[Patrysha]

i do wish i could get wordpress....but my web person thinks it would be too hard for her.....
Then she likely hasn't used it. My 8 year old can post to a WP site. Not design in it mind you...but to edit and add...

[Business Attorney]

Ann, if your web person can't figure out Wordpress, then i would urge you to have someone professionally develop a Wordpress site to your liking and have your web person trained on how to work with it. As Patrysha said, an 8 year old can post to it. Doing effective on-page SEO with the built-in features and a plug-in like All-in-One SEO is only slightly harder than posting; nothing an adult who is familiar with the internet cannot be guided into doing while she is posting.

[huggytree]

vg, .. ..we already redid our site early this year.....kind of like huggy, in house...
. and its brought in lots of new buyers...and lots of good feedback..... and it got the feel i wanted...so no, im not looking for any help...
.always curious tho about how businesses go about finding their way on the internet.... huggys story is pretty neat...

my story is neat.....my website is my winner for the year....my loser is being a listed plumber for a realitor...i paid $600 to be listed and have gotten $250 , about 15 price shopping calls and 3 who canceled their appointment 2 hours before the job......also sponsored a golf course...paid $500...never got 1 call....i advertised in 4 phone books...one never got me a call....thousands wasted there....now im down to 1 tiny local book that i go all out on...i triple my investment a year...i think i paid $700 for a 1/2 page ad and get $2400 back.....im planning on a full page next year

with wild card for me and advertising right now is the church bulletin....ive gotten my investment back and if i get a couple of more jobs ill double my ad there...

I got another internet job today.....also i dont count repeat business in my internet total....its probably 3-5x that amount for the year...many times $250 jobs turn into a $3,000 2nd job 1 year later...i lose track of where i originally got the customer from...i recognize its a repeat customer and dont ask again where they found out about me

im debating trying AdWords again...its been a real loser in the past...i think i got 1 $150 job and probably put in $400....i have tried adwords 2-3x in the past for a few months at a time...it costs me $1something per click in my catagory

[billbenson]

I'd strongly suggest you have an expert help you with adwords if you try it again. I'd suggest Vangogh but I'm sure there are others around here that can help. There is a lot to it to be successful which is why most adwords campaigns fail.

If you decide to do it on your own, I'd suggest you start an adwords thread here for advice.

Adwords has been highly successful for me. My approach is a lot of ads (100 or so) with a small list of targeted keywords and a targeted landing page for those keywords. Your site already ranks well for the common searches. One ad for Waukesha Plumbing using your home page as the landing page will be a waste of money and time.

A good campaign takes a lot of time over time. Write an add a week for keywords that don't cost that much and add a landing page for that ad and eventually you will have a nice campaign that makes money.

[greenoak]

thanks dAVID....THATS WHAT IM GOING TO PROPOSE TO HER next time we get the bug to improve...shes a purdue graduate and has done our whole web thing for years so i know she could learn it...
i havent made adwords work either..... but probably didnt stick to it long enough

[cbscreative]

I was thinking Steve (cbscreative) might be a good fit for you. I have a feeling you'd like what he would come up for you.

Thanks, vangogh!


i do wish i could get wordpress....but my web person thinks it would be too hard for her......

Like the others already commented...it's not difficult at all. Once you have it customized to your needs, adding content isn't much more complicated than posting to this forum or composing email.


Adwords has been highly successful for me. My approach is a lot of ads (100 or so) with a small list of targeted keywords and a targeted landing page for those keywords. Your site already ranks well for the common searches. One ad for Waukesha Plumbing using your home page as the landing page will be a waste of money and time.

A good campaign takes a lot of time over time. Write an add a week for keywords that don't cost that much and add a landing page for that ad and eventually you will have a nice campaign that makes money.

Excellent advice! I'm not an Adwords guru and don't pretend to be, but what I do know about it is bill's advice is sound. Custom landing pages are the key. Get someone with a proven track record and it can be very profitable. Try to wing it and you'll likely end up feeding a money drain.

[greenoak]

our constant challenge in adwords or picking key words words is that we are kind of like a department store....and sell a huge amount of things in lots of categories......picking one or 2 words just doesnt cover what our main draw is....

also whats the big deal about wordpress? i guess i believe you all that its good....but why? whats the difference between that and what we have now...? i am going to go with davids advice eventually...we are pretty happy with our results now....but still...onward and upward is always good...

[vangogh]

Ann you wouldn't pick just one or two keywords for an AdWords campaign. And they wouldn't necessarily have to be specific to products. With a little research I'm sure there are hundreds and even thousands of potential keywords that could be bid on. I'm not saying you would bid on several thousand words and phrases. Just saying there are many many potential ones that could be bid on and part of what you do managing an AdWords campaign is find the best phrases to bid on and keep working to improve how well each one works for you.

WordPress is a content management system. It started out mainly as a CMS for blogging, but over the years has expanded into something that can handle more types of content. A CMS separates the content you as a site owner or blogger might create and the theme someone like me might develop for you. Say you're using a theme and decided you wanted something new or just a change to the theme you use. You can either make the change or set up a new theme without having to touch the content.

Similar to themes are plugins which let you add new functionality. For example maybe you decide you'd like to show some of your Facebook content on your website. As it is now someone likely has to open every file of your website and add whatever code is needed. With something like WordPress you would likely only need to add the code in one place or even better it would be something that you without any web development experience could drag from one spot to another and the Facebook stuff would show up where you want.

Do you need it? No, but it can make managing your site much, much easier.

[billbenson]

our constant challenge in adwords or picking key words words is that we are kind of like a department store....and sell a huge amount of things in lots of categories......picking one or 2 words just doesnt cover what our main draw is....

also whats the big deal about wordpress? i guess i believe you all that its good....but why? whats the difference between that and what we have now...? i am going to go with davids advice eventually...we are pretty happy with our results now....but still...onward and upward is always good...

Just like you want visitors returning to your website via natural SERPS, you want them coming or returning from adwords ads. If you could come up with some more general search keywords that aren't that expensive and could put different items on a group of landing pages that could work. Something like a Magnolia Pearl site as an iframe inside of those pages could work well. You will find though that the Magnolia Pearl type site would be extremely expensive and hard to get results for. Its possible, but hard to do as was stated in the other thread.

As to Wordpress. Its something that someone who doesn't know anything about web design can learn quickly how to put up a site. For those that know more about web design or are professionals, they can use it to make very sophisticated elegant sites. Word press (and other CMS's) are easy to use to make very large sites and manage data, pages headers etc throughout the site. Also, say you design and manage your WordPress site. You may come to a point that you can't do something you would really like to do because it is beyond your skills or for some other reason. there are plenty of web designers that specialize in WordPress. It will be far less expensive for them to make changes to your site than a custom site.

If your site is only a couple of pages and rarely changes, say a dentist's site, it doesn't matter that much. Pay someone $500 for a 5 page site and you are fine. Most dentists aren't going to care where their page ranks as all dentists I have been to are over booked for months anyway.

I can't think of anybody on this forum that would not be better off using a WordPress site. That doesn't mean that their existing site doesn't work. It would just be easier for the people I know here to use a database driven site which is what WordPress is. There are others; Joomla, Dupral etc. They aren't as popular as WordPress, but are good products from everything I hear.

None of this means you should switch over. However, if you find yourself changing your site frequently, adding pages, changing existing pages etc. you may want to investigate it further. You seem to be happy with your web designer and the site works for you so that is a good reason not to change.

So that's my opinion as to why WP is a good approach for a lot of people.

[greenoak]

magnolia pearl doesnt need key words... you dont look for her by saying shirt..... you know her name....if i took license plates as a key word, or cups and saucers, or sap buckets........it would be pathetic..... there are so manyplaces that specialize in those items...and they are super minor to me and dont deserve a page...,,,i dont see howi could get any good out of it...or have any hope of being up there in placing...plus those 3 things are totally minor to me...my big draw is the big quantity and diversity of stuff...
i dont even know what a theme is...or a plug in..... so im not following...
.i feel like wordpress is right, because of you all on here, but i dont see the good points for it that i would use to get us there....

[billbenson]

Ann, let me just add one thing to my post above since it dealt with both wordpress and adwords:

With adwords, as I mentioned earlier, one good strategy comes with using a unique landing page for each ad. With WordPress, you can simply fill out a form to create a page. Its very fast and easy. Just about as easy as making a post here. So the two would make a nice marriage. Write an ad, add your keywords to adwords, and fill out a form to make a custom landing page for the ad.

I said "Something like a Magnolia Pearl site" above. I was referring to using Flash or similar within a web page and still getting the page to rank. I'm not suggesting you try to create a Magnolia Pearl type of site. Actually I don't suggest inserting flash within your site, I'm just saying its possible and still get SEO.

It sounds like you are having trouble with keywords. As VG mentioned above, there are probably thousands of keywords that you haven't thought of. To use Adwords successfully you need to have a very good understanding of keywords and SEO.

You aren't a web designer and probably don't want to be. Neither is Huggy. Both of you are effectively using other vehicles well to get business. I'd really recommend both of you stay away from Adwords unless you enlist the help of a professional and even then the ROI may not be worth it. Please don't take that negatively.

Adwords can be extremely effective, but it takes web design knowledge and SEO knowledge to execute it well.

[vangogh]

Ann you definitely don't have to use WordPress. Even though many of us here like it and use doesn't mean we think everyone needs to use it. Content Management Systems (CMS) in general, WordPress being one, make it easier for non web developers to create new web pages or change existing ones. If you can use Microsoft Word you can create pages with WordPress.

[greenoak]

thanks bill...that clears it up a bit...i am very open to this idea....but very in the dark about what it would make better or different.......... our site has lots of pictures and 8 or 10 pages i think......its pretty big and complicated...and its been around for several years...its a huge tool and part of our marketing...and a big plus for us...and brings us lots and lots of business......lots directly and who knows indirectly....im going yo have my web person start at least looking at wordpress ...
i hear you on adwords and wont be spending much time on them for now....on adwords you say there are thousands of keywords to choose from....thats the trouble...i know at least 20 or 30 good ones........but none quite fit the OVERALL situation...... im not in a narrow niche....rather, like i said, more like a department store ,with a huge variety of products....
we are doing local facebook ads right now for our garden event.......
huggy...your front page says all the good things a homeowner wants to hear...... and is clear and simple and a nice picture....

[vangogh]

on adwords you say there are thousands of keywords to choose from....thats the trouble...i know at least 20 or 30 good ones

You have to look beyond the few words and phrases you can think of on your own. It's about finding what real people are actually typing into search engines and there are a variety of tools to help discover all the phrases you'll miss. We all use different words when searching. None of us can brainstorm all the possible phrases. The 20-30 keywords you know are only a start. From there you would organize those keywords in certain ways, take them to different tools to discover more, organize again, etc.

[huggytree]

my last adwords campagn was using competitors names...i thought that would work, but it didnt

the problem for my business that i see is price shoppers....everything i do in advertising is to discourage price shoppers...when they get to my website they will probably know im not the 'cheap' plumber.....but it will have already cost me $1-$2....

before i started to sound expensive in my advertising i got 1 out of 10 jobs.....there's not enough space to sound expensive in my 2 line Adwords...they would all click and cost me $$....then realize im expensive when they looked around my website...

50 percent of people will always choose the cheapest plumber and are willing to call 10-20 plumbers to find the guy who is $5 lower than anyone else...getting rid of those 50 percent = success......Adwords doesnt work with my philosophy

who thinks they can make me $$ on Adwords????

if it doesnt work do i get a full refund????n (ill eat the adwords charges)

how many calls should i expect per week? month?

im willing to try again if someone can guarantee success....if it works good id probably even give you a tip

[billbenson]

As I said above to ann, to do it yourself you need to know seo well and be ok at writing web pages. At least using the way I would approach it. You should be paying 10 cents to 25 cents a click. Not 1 or 2 dollars. A good campaign can get you down there. Even then I would want more revenue streams on your website. Sell some products, videos etc.

All of that is a long way away from your business model as I understand it. Could it be done. Yes. Does it make sense given your current business model? IMO no. You will end up loosing money, possibly a lot of money using adwords IMO.

On Edit: I believe Steve_B said he was making money on an adwords campaign Vangogh did for him. Maybe there is an approach that would work for you. But you would still need someone who knows what they are doing to set it up for you.

[Steve B]

Ann - I have one very simple service and I probably bid on 100 to 200 adwords. I think there is probably a lot of opportunity with Adwords that you're missing - even considering your overall situation of having such a huge variety. I know you also rank well with organic searches, but there is a benefit to being on the page twice also. At a minimum you could be targeting the top 5 products that make you the most money.

I pasted this list from your website (cupboards...TV stands...Big Bookshelves...Porch Post Cupboards...
little bookcases...low cupboards...islands...bars). You could put the word "old", "new", "antique", "vintage" in front of each of those words and start building quite a list of inexpensive words to bid on. You may want to put the word "Indiana" in front of each of them also. You can make it so your keywords only apply to people that are searching from certain geographic areas (like Indiana - or certain zip codes etc. This way you don't waste your money on people who are in Florida and will never likely drive up to buy your stuff).

[greenoak]

thanks steve.... thats so interesting.... i might have to rethink this.... we did use our $100 coupon....and learned it a little....
funny huggy.... i dont think marketers guarantee!!!!! they are kind of like doctors....not plumbers or storekeepers...
i kind of believe what bill is saying...
the thing i want to sell and always try and catch in my marketing is ~~~~a fun place to shop and a girls day out.... my target woman buys furniture , has fun here, buys a naughty magnet or cute sign and something for her garden...and maybe somethng pink for her little girl.....

[vangogh]

if it doesnt work do i get a full refund????

Probably not. If you run a commercial on tv do you get your money back if you don't get the customers you want? Does the phonebook return your money if you don't get enough calls? Marketing in general isn't an exact science and that includes AdWords.

Someone could set up your AdWords account to perfection and you could still generate no new business, because of things out of that persons control. Your website could be underperforming. You personally could be driving people away that end up calling.

The way to best run an AdWords campaign is to start it, measure the results and optimize it over time. It could be several months before you can even say if the campaign was successful or not so the person you hire would be putting in a lot of work. It's not something you do in an hour or two.

Most people who offer AdWords services will charge you a fee to set the account up and then a monthly fee to manage the account often based on your budget. They might charge a month of two of budget to set up and then 10% or 15% of the budget to manage the account. Usually there are minimums too. If you're budget is $500/month it's unlikely many people would be willing to manage the account for $50/month.

Having said that you probably can find people who will give you some kind of guarantee. They might ask for part of the payment to be non-refundable and then be willing to accept another part of the payment based on performance. It would depend on the company. However the more guarantee for you the less likely I would think the company performing the service is worth it. People who are good at this probably don't need the business and probably don't need to offer the guarantee in the first place. Odds are they'll have more than enough clients not to need to. If you were planning a large campaign with a large budget then a good company would be more willing to take the risk. Those budgets are going to be measure in the tens of thousands a month though.

Realistically it would be less risk for the AdWords person to set up their own site selling something and run AdWords on their own site. I'm sure you can find someone willing to offer some kind of guarantee though. The question becomes how good is that person.

[huggytree]

i didnt think anyone would give me guarantee....just throwing it out there

if something worked 100 percent you'd easily guarantee it....i guarantee my work, but its all under my control

when my gut tells me some form of advertising wont work for me its been correct 100 percent of the time...i can see Adwords doing nothing for me and its been proven 3x

im not sure how i would track it anyways...i always ask new customers how they found me...but getting to the details on where they clicked is probably impossible for most people.

[billbenson]

i can see Adwords doing nothing for me and its been proven 3x

Again you condemn adwords when its probably your execution of adwords.

[Patrysha]

I don't do Adwords, but I do provide guarantees to select clients but it's a huge commitment on their part and there's a whole vetting process before anything gets started...and I always provide money back guarantees on info-products, workshops or trainings and those sorts of things...I won't do it for one-of projects or things that have too many variables to guarantee...

[vangogh]

i didnt think anyone would give me guarantee....just throwing it out there

I'm sure you can find someone will guarantee things to an extent. Maybe not a full 100% guarantee, but there are people who will work based on performance. Of course they might then insist on taking more if they do really well.

The basics of what someone will do to get a campaign running is:

1. research keywords to bid on
2. organize the words and phrases into groups that become ad groups
3. write a couple of ads for each group

Then you collect data for awhile and adjust everything based on the data. You could first hire someone to do the keyword research. The keywords will likely apply to both AdWords and the organic search results. At a later time you could hire someone to set up the campaign and monitor it. You're still spending the money, but you could spread it out a little more and you'd be able to get something back (the keywords) without being committed to everything else.

To add to what Bill said when your gut tells you something won't work there's a good chance you don't put in the resources necessary to make it work or you find some way to sabotage your efforts because you've convinced yourself in advance of the outcome. You set up a self-fulfilling prophecy.

An AdWords campaign can be set up in many different ways. And as long as it's managed and optimized it should lead to a positive ROI for any site.

[Patrysha]

when my gut tells me some form of advertising wont work for me its been correct 100 percent of the time...i can see Adwords doing nothing for me and its been proven 3x

And that's exactly as you can expect it to be. Henry Ford said "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are right." Which sounds totally cheesy, but it's the absolute truth. Preconceived notions do affect results. If you think something isn't going to work, you put in a half assed effort and the results suffer and you attribute it to the method, not the execution. That's part of human nature. Advertising will work as long as your message and your delivery are right for your target market and it's where they can see it.


im not sure how i would track it anyways...i always ask new customers how they found me...but getting to the details on where they clicked is probably impossible for most people.
The tracking is done for you with online marketing. If you know how to read your web stats you can already tell what customers are coming from there even if they don't tell you. That's what analytics is for...and for allowing you to test different variables to improve results...once things are set up right...a little fine tuning can allow for increasingly better results...that's the beauty of web marketing...so much is easy to measure and track. You don't really need to think about it, you just have to know how to read and respond to it.

[vangogh]

Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are right.

Way before Henry Ford there was the Dhammapada (http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada-01.html) which begins with similar words of advice.

As far as tracking is concerned Analytics can tell you a lot, especially when connected to an AdWords account. You can really segment visitors to your site through all sorts of ways. The harder part for your business is the sale doesn't come directly through your site, but even that can be accounted for. Your site can be set up to provide people with some kind of coupon code. The discount could be small enough not to affect your bottom line and simply be part of your marketing costs. The code could be different and based on how a person found you. Some clicking on one keyword phrase in AdWords gets one code and someone else visiting with another phrase gets a different code. A third person who found you through the phone book gets yet another code.

Coupons exist as much to track how your marketing is working as they do to offer an extra incentive to customers to buy. They're probably more valuable for the tracking.

[greenoak]

huggy, im with you on gut and tracking...
a business knows all its issues best..... not that we cant learn all the time and get better and better....
i really cant see adwords working for me either...but it would take such a long dissertation to explain why...
tracking would be a joke right now for us....we are in the middle of a huge event and have done mail, facebook, newspaper, radio and email..it worked great......we had about 4 or 500 folks in today...and no way could we have tracked them....tracking is easy if you are selling one thing on line ...thats not my situation at all...and i take tracking advice as nice as i can , i know its well meant, and ive heard it from so many marketers , but it just doesnt fit my situation..i cant even imagine trying for codes or coupons on a big weekend like we are having...ive tried coupons way too many times...and they are here in person not needing to punch in a code.... .. at the same time w e all have to figure out what is working the best...and thats where our judgement comes in...or gut..

[Steve B]

Huggy - I'm about 95% sure you thought a website was waste of time for you (this goes back to the old forum I believe), but now you're bragging on the results. Having a website is a form of advertising - so unless I am remembering this incorrectly - your gut was wrong about that one.

[huggytree]

Steve B.....ooook....my guts not 100 percent....i was just thinking about all the advertising idea's ive done and how i could have predicted all of them

my 1st website was worthless....my 2nd one cost alot of $$ and was the best i could do at the time........i am bragging about the results when compared with last year....but when compared with my total sales i making 1-2 percent of my sales from my website....better than .25 percent like last year..

overall my internet sales are very poor.....but compared to last year they are awesome.....it would be nice to see 10-20 percent in sales...

[greenoak]

i dont think you can easily track all of the good from your website.... your site looks great and they might be influenced by it an not actually mention it....
my wild guess is that 80% of my customers under 60 use our website ...to brouse , for store hours, for directions, to send to friends, etc etc....
and now they use our facebook a whole lot too....when 5 or 10 people mention following us on line to just me in one week i know its working.,and all the workers and dh hear it from customers too.....

[Spider]

What you cannot measure, you cannot control.

Not saying you should measure, nor what you should measure, nor whether you can or cannot measure. But if you can't or don't or won't measure it, you cannot control it. And if you don't control it, you are flying by the seat of your pants!

[uwwandrew]

Congratulations! It is funny how many people focus on SEO/PPC w/o revamping and testing site content. What good is all that traffic going to do you if you are not closing? :D

[billbenson]

Congratulations! It is funny how many people focus on SEO/PPC w/o revamping and testing site content. What good is all that traffic going to do you if you are not closing? :D

Who said that?

[greenoak]

im closing big time.... great day today....but in brick and mortar...with tons of credit going to online work...in my mind anyway...

[Hulbert Lee]

i redid my website around a year ago now....i looked at my sales increase from it....200percent!!!

i went from a blah website written by someone else to one that focuses on quality..i get no price shoppers anymore from it....every call i get i win

i used to think the internet was worthless....since i only got 1-3 jobs a year from it... now im getting 10+ jobs a year....its still not much, but when you consider referrals those 10 jobs add up year after year....

im getting a few thousand from it...

at the same time im getting completely out of the phone book....im not even going to have my name listed anymore....the only book im using is the small local one and that one im going all out in.

the phone book advertising seems to be going up in price...i dont get it...they should be going down in price to keep advertisers

This is great news! It's inspiring to hear stories of people who have worked hard and gotten good results from it. I'm glad you let that person guy and took writing process into your own hands.

[JeremyJ]

yeah true! I just heard a teleseminar that said the copy on your site can make or break you, so it's important to hire someone to write it.

Did you hire someone, or learn how to write it yourself?

[alphadore]

i redid my website around a year ago now....i looked at my sales increase from it....200percent!!!

i went from a blah website written by someone else to one that focuses on quality..i get no price shoppers anymore from it....every call i get i win

i used to think the internet was worthless....since i only got 1-3 jobs a year from it... now im getting 10+ jobs a year....its still not much, but when you consider referrals those 10 jobs add up year after year....

im getting a few thousand from it...

The question is; did you start getting 2 times more jobs because you re-did your website or you search engine optimized it? I know for a fact that search engine optimized websites make a huge difference.

[vangogh]

I can't speak for Dave, but I don't think there's been a lot of seo done on the site. At the very least I can tell by looking at the site that some very basic things have not been done. I think it was more the redesign that helped. Dave would know better though whether the increase in sales is the result of more traffic or a higher conversion rate.

[BeTheBest]

Sorry that I am 'chiming' in so late on this, but it's great to hear another website success story. I have clients that want the basics and don't want to spend a lot of money. Their issue is that they want to see 'how it goes', and then decide to expand later. Ha! It doesn't work that way because they get nothing from a basic site.

On the other hand, when clients add the content that visitors are looking for, get the SEO done properly and start building a list of customer and prospects, they come back and tell me how the website 'doubled' their business. Oh yeah, it's just that it cost a little more.

You get out of if what you put into it.

Regarding comments on YP ads, I am a firm believer that we're about to see a generation of people who don't know what the Yello Pages is all about!

Hope this helps!

[cbscreative]

Regarding comments on YP ads, I am a firm believer that we're about to see a generation of people who don't know what the Yello Pages is all about!

I have no idea what you're talking about. What is this strange thing you speak of? :D

[BeTheBest]

Yeah... I bet you don't! I can remember days of spending a small fortune on ads in that crazy yellow book. Today, if you don't have a website, you may as well pack it in. As a matter of fact, I don't understand how or why they continue to print that thing. Does anyone still use it?

[Spider]

I still use the Yellowpages. For a start, a search on any search engine will only give you those businesses that have a website and which that SE feels is "relevant." The Yellowpages gives you EVERY company that has a telephone in your vicinity.

Then, a SE gives you 10 companies per page (15 or 20 or so, if you set up your personal settings to that.) The YP gives you hundreds of companies per page, which depending on the category means every company in your vicinity on a single page.

Those companies listed on a SE page are very often directories, so you don't reach a company that can serve you, you reach another list of companies to search. And, very often, the directories don't list a contact, you have to click on the the copany's website. The YellowPages gives you the name, address and telephone no. of the companies for immediate contact.

Oh, yes, the web has a long way to go before it will take over from the YellowPages.

[billbenson]

Dunno Spider. I was in a car dealship buying a car a couple of weeks ago. I needed to switch my Geico insurance to the new vehicle and change coverages. The receptionist handed me the yellow pages. There was a huge ad with the local phone number for a local Geico agent but I couldn't find the national 800 number which I needed to change my insurance.

The same event would have taken seconds on G for either the local agent or the national number.

My yellow pages go straight to the trash. I don't recall needing them in 10 years.

[Spider]

My Yellowpages go as a footrest under my computer desk. But I still pull them out when I need to search for a particular company in my vicinity. And my wife's pet grooming and boarding business still gets calls from her Yellowpages ad. Not many, but we don't need many to make it worthwhile. More than we get from the YP online listings.

[Dan Furman]

Oh, yes, the web has a long way to go before it will take over from the YellowPages.

This is very true for your demographic, for sure. For people my age (45)... it's "iffy" - could go either way.... Just anecdotal, but I'd say my age group is about 70/30 web/yellow. I'm all-in on the web / smartphones. Most people my age I know are. But some aren't. My brother in law? Can't even send an e-mail - he's a yellow pages guy.

For people younger than me? I would guess there's very, very few who use the Yellow Pages. It's either the web, or an app.

The cost of Yellow Page ads, and the slew of different books, make it an increasingly poor investment (imho). But I guess that would depend on who you are selling to as well. If you are selling to seniors (or if they make up a good bulk of your customers), then it's probably good to buy a nice sized ad. If you are selling the latest smartphones or are a tattoo parlor, it's probably not the best place to spend your advertising dollars.

[billbenson]

I believe that. There are plenty of businesses that don't try to advertise online. Still, the Chinese restaurant down the street I'm sure doesn't know what the internet is appears in a search. I would think its the handyman types that work out of their house that are in the yellow pages and not online.

[cbscreative]

Yeah... I bet you don't! I can remember days of spending a small fortune on ads in that crazy yellow book. Today, if you don't have a website, you may as well pack it in. As a matter of fact, I don't understand how or why they continue to print that thing. Does anyone still use it?

Since we don't know each other very well yet, you wouldn't be familiar with my history, nor my sense of humor. I started my first biz (a sign company) over 25 years ago. Yes, I helped plenty with printing and distribution costs...also got to experience how they pull you in with "first year rates" and slide the scale every year to extract more money.

As for why they still print it, I do recall hearing a major publisher bit the dust a few years back, so the decline is accelerating. I see it getting noticeably thinner too. Pretty soon, it won't even serve as a door stop and prop device, so that should help finish it off. I think it may be a while before it's completely gone, but the business value is rapidly shrinking, and even for those who still make money, the return is diminishing.

One reason it's still hanging on is a similar artificial resuscitation strategy that keeps newspapers afloat. With newspapers, the coupons are one of the only things sustaining them. They literally give away newspapers to bloat the circulation numbers so they can dupe the advertisers. In the case of YP, many "advertisers" get free space to give the appearance of more advertising than there really is. They have plenty of dirty little secrets, but their will to survive seems to resemble a wounded animal that doesn't concern itself with ethics as it lays dying.

[BeTheBest]

Hi cbscreative!

Then you have much the same history as I do. My first company (1977) was a retail oriented auto service. Yellow pages was a HUGE part of my advertising. In some cases, depending on budgets, it was the only advertising. If you were not in the book, your phone didn't ring.

But what I found funny was that I saw a report (sorry, don't have it and can not confirm it) but the YP's were actually reporting that over 70% of people turn to the web first. They know they are that wounded animal.

From what I have seen, their online efforts are improving, but I myself don't use them often.
I also agree with your comments about newspapers. From what I have heard, they are trying to get the 'subscription' thing going online. Haven't heard if it's working for anyone, but I am not going to hold my breath.

[Spider]

... The cost of Yellow Page ads, and the slew of different books, make it an increasingly poor investment (imho). But I guess that would depend on who you are selling to as well. If you are selling to seniors (or if they make up a good bulk of your customers), then it's probably good to buy a nice sized ad. If you are selling the latest smartphones or are a tattoo parlor, it's probably not the best place to spend your advertising dollars.This conversation has turned to the advertising aspect, and I was not addressing that, at all. My comments are about efficacy of use - use by people looking for a particular company and their telephone number. It doesn't matter what age you are, you get a bigger list of relevant companies from YP than you do from a list from a SE.

Open a YP directory and look at any category. Now search for that category on your favorite search engine. All the names shown on the serps page will be in the YP page, but not all the names on the YP page will be on the SE page. And even when all the businesses have a website (if ever), you still will not see all the businesses on the serps page because the SE will have sorted them by so-called "relevancy" and will have "sorted" many of them out!

The YP directory may not be very scientific, may not appeal to a lot of people, and may not be a good place to advertise any more, but it will be a long time before actual businesses do not have a business telephone. And if you have a business telephone, you have an entry in your local Yellowpages, no matter what! For someone wanting a list of all the companies listed alphabetically and by type in their location, the YP delivers and SEs do not.

In fact, I think that the YP companies would be far more successful if they laid out their online directory serps like the paper YP book and not like the Google/Bing/Yahoo serps page they currently try to copy. Then advertising on the online YPs might be worthwhile again.

[vangogh]

you get a bigger list of relevant companies from YP than you do from a list from a SE

You might get a bigger list, but bigger doesn't mean more relevant or better. There's a basic principle of psychology that says the more choices you give someone the less likely they are to make a choice. Whether or not the phone book lists more companies isn't as relevant to helping them find a company as it might seem. Also unless the business pays for an ad there's no information about that business in the phone book. Online there's likely more information than a phone number.


it will be a long time before actual businesses do not have a business telephone

Are you sure? More and more people are dropping landlines in favor of cell phones, including for business. I could be mistaken, but I don't think the yellow pages list cell phone numbers. A service like Google Voice lets you create a new phone number and have the call redirected to the phone of your choice. I doubt those would be listed in the phone book.

Regardless, if people aren't looking through phone books why would you care if your business is or isn't listed in the phone book? That's not to say no one uses the phone book, but less and less people do each year. Personally I haven't opened one in at least 5 years and probably closer to 10 years.

[billbenson]

Open a YP directory and look at any category. Now search for that category on your favorite search engine. All the names shown on the serps page will be in the YP page, but not all the names on the YP page will be on the SE page. And even when all the businesses have a website (if ever), you still will not see all the businesses on the serps page because the SE will have sorted them by so-called "relevancy" and will have "sorted" many of them out!


I'd venture to say (although I don't have any yellow pages to compare to) that your statement is only valid for local searches. I don't really look for local phone numbers much. I suspect you are correct if you are looking for something like a plumber but that is far more common to use by referral. I just had a new garage door put on the house. I used the people that installed my neighbors garage door.

I just can't think of one occasion in recent years where I said to myself "I wish I hadn't thrown out the yellow pages".

[vangogh]

if you are looking for something like a plumber

I'd suggest this is less about convincing people they should search the phone book for a local plumber and more why the local plumber should have a website or at least a local search listing with the search engines and sites like Yelp and even the online version of the yellow pages.

[billbenson]

I'd suggest this is less about convincing people they should search the phone book for a local plumber and more why the local plumber should have a website or at least a local search listing with the search engines and sites like Yelp and even the online version of the yellow pages.

While I agree with you, we are still in a world where people don't know how to give themselves a good web presence. Even major corporations often have a lousy web presence. The computer user is becoming more competent at using a computer so that's very likely where they will turn, but the local business owner is frequently clueless and for good reason. Its not that simple to have a good web presence.

That's not going to change the fact that you and I and a lot of other people are going to throw the yellow pages in the trash. I also agree that a G search may be a more qualified search. But if you want all results locally to give you all your options Spider may be correct at this moment in time. Personally I see a fairly quick path to obsolescence for the YP. As soon as they aren't profitable they will disappear.

[vangogh]

We're still in a world where many businesses don't know how to create a decent phone book ad either. My point is that if more and more people are looking online for your business than your business should have some kind of online presence. I agree that many businesses don't know how to do that effectively, but that doesn't change that they need to build that presence.


if you want all results locally

People don't want all the local options. They want one option to call. There's something called the paradox of choice that shows that more options reduces the probability any option is ultimately chosen. When confronted with too many choices we avoid picking one, because it's overwhelming. True the phone book might list everyone, but how many people do you ever call. If you're like most people you look at the few businesses with an ad or you start at the top of the list and call the first number that seems ok. It's why people used to name themselves A1 Whatever Business.

[billbenson]

Well there is at least one person out there that wants to see all the results. Even scarier is that there may be more :)

We are pretty much agreeing. The point I'm emphasizing (or at least trying to) is that all small businesses IMO need a quality web presence. Again IMO not that many web designers or consultants really provide that service. It takes a lot of research just to find the proper people to give you a decent web presence.

[Dan Furman]

This conversation has turned to the advertising aspect, and I was not addressing that, at all.

The yellow pages and listings are two different things. At least here, you have to pay to get into the yellow pages. It's pure advertising. Your business phone number appears free in the white pages (assuming you got your number as a landline... I don't know what's going on with that now, actually.)

[Spider]

If you have a business line, you get a free line listing in the phone company's Yellowpages directory in addition to the phone company's white pages, which may be all in one binding, I think. In a large city like Houston Tx, you get a free listing in the city-wide business (white) pages AND a free listing in the city-wide yellowpages (a separate book) AND a free listing in the local area yellowpages (another separate book.) Ads in any of these directories have to be paid for. There are other private yellowpage directories and they still list businesses for free as a line listing with ads that are paid for.

[Dan Furman]

If you have a business line, you get a free line listing in the phone company's Yellowpages directory in addition to the phone company's white pages, which may be all in one binding

Which phone company / phone service, and which book? My home phone (landline - two of them) is through my cable company. My brother uses Majik Jack (or whatever it's called.) My chiropractor uses Vonage.

We have about 4 "phone books" in this area, none of them complete by any stretch.

See, that's the problem. There is no singular "phone company" in the classic sense.

[Spider]

Ah, but there is. The old Ma Bell was broken up into several major 'traditional' telephone companies, Regional Bells - like Southwestern Bell, Bell South, Bell Atlantic and so on. Through various mergers and buy-outs, I think they remain as AT&T, Verizon, and Centurylink, but there has been a whole lot of mergers and divestitures. it is hard to know who is what, these days.

Anyway, the services you quote, Dan, are, I believe, all digital and rely to some extent on internet connection. IOW, they are not landlines. Landline 'traditonal' telephone services are identified, I beleve, by the RS- plug that connects them to the landline service - that's the little square plug in the wall of your house. If you go through your computer or cable company, that is not a landline.

You - and many other people, probably - are not using landlines for their personal telephone service. Established companies and corporations, and many people use the Regional Telephone Companies for their service. In Houston, that is AT&T, who bought out Southwester Bell. It is confusing, I admit, because some companies - AT&T and Verizon among them - offer wired and wireless service but they are not the same.

The telephone directories are put out by the regional 'landline' companies. I know of no base directory of cellphone or digital phone numbers published by the miriad of alternative phone services. Such was the result of deregulation.

One of the advantages (and telling points) of landline service is you do not lose your telephone service when your electrical power is down. If you lose electricity, your cable and voip services don't work. Your landline will still work.

[cbscreative]

One of the advantages (and telling points) of landline service is you do not lose your telephone service when your electrical power is down. If you lose electricity, your cable and voip services don't work. Your landline will still work.

Well, true, but not always. It depends on whether or not you have a "low tech" phone or not. Most of the new phones go out with the power.

I got to experience it early this summer. Many years ago, we got power outages a few times a year. We used to keep one of those "old" phones around. Then we went about 10 years with little or no power outages. I didn't count, but I'd guess 3 or less during approx 10 years. Then suddenly this summer, we got 3 in just over a week. Fortunately, even after a few storms since, we haven't been knocked out the past few months.

I just thought your statement had some hidden humor since we have gotten so advanced lately that phones now DO go out when the power fails. Gotta love progress.

[Spider]

Well, true, but not always. It depends on whether or not you have a "low tech" phone or not. Most of the new phones go out with the power....Absolutely! In fact, I have just revamped our house, grooming shop and my office phone system, and made sure my wife's low-tech bedside phone is still plugged into the wall and still works. She never uses it, and beside it is a hi-tech phone - why two phones? The old phone doesn't show caller-id, the new phone does. But we are in a hurricane zone and when Ike came through Houston a couple of years ago, we were without electricity for 2 or 3 weeks. But were weren't without telephone.

[Dan Furman]

Ah, but there is. The old Ma Bell was broken up into several major 'traditional' telephone companies, Regional Bells - like Southwestern Bell, Bell South, Bell Atlantic and so on. Through various mergers and buy-outs, I think they remain as AT&T, Verizon, and Centurylink, but there has been a whole lot of mergers and divestitures. it is hard to know who is what, these days.

Anyway, the services you quote, Dan, are, I believe, all digital and rely to some extent on internet connection. IOW, they are not landlines. Landline 'traditonal' telephone services are identified, I beleve, by the RS- plug that connects them to the landline service - that's the little square plug in the wall of your house. If you go through your computer or cable company, that is not a landline.

You - and many other people, probably - are not using landlines for their personal telephone service. Established companies and corporations, and many people use the Regional Telephone Companies for their service. In Houston, that is AT&T, who bought out Southwester Bell. It is confusing, I admit, because some companies - AT&T and Verizon among them - offer wired and wireless service but they are not the same.

The telephone directories are put out by the regional 'landline' companies. I know of no base directory of cellphone or digital phone numbers published by the miriad of alternative phone services. Such was the result of deregulation.

One of the advantages (and telling points) of landline service is you do not lose your telephone service when your electrical power is down. If you lose electricity, your cable and voip services don't work. Your landline will still work.

But that's not relevent to the discussion on websites or web vs. yellow pages. The fact is, there are so many telephone choices that the Yellow Pages are NOT as complete as you are saying they are. It's only complete in businesses that still choose to deal with Ma Bell (or whatnot), which is becoming smaller by the day. Yes, even with good, established companies. Hence, the Yellow Pages become less useful.

Oh, and many times, the power going out is because a tree fell on a wire. That happens to phone lines too. It's hardly a foolproof advantage. My cell works, though ;)

[Spider]

...Oh, and many times, the power going out is because a tree fell on a wire. That happens to phone lines too. It's hardly a foolproof advantage. My cell works, though ;)Well. I dunno, Dan. When Ike whipped through Houston, my neighborhood was devastated. It is (was) a pican plantation with lots of huge trees, many possibly 100 years old (a lot fewer now!) Those toppled trees pulled down the power lines and they all had to be removed before the power company could reinstate the electricity, which is why we were without current for 2 to 3 weeks. Yet we didn't lose the telephone service. Perhaps the "last mile" is underground. What I do know is that AT&T has a cable service on those same power poles and their cable service was down, too, but their landline telephone service was working throughout.

Anyway, the relevance with this thread and Yellowpage directory service vs web search is clear. I grant that many people are dropping their landlines but not as fast as you appear to be thinking. Will telephone directories disappear eventually? Maybe. Will they disappear any time soon? No. From a business point of view, yellowpage advertising is still as relevant in today's business world as it ever was, depending on your demographic. If your target does not use the telephone directory, then of course there is no point in advertising in it, whether they have a landline or not. But don't get carried away thinking that just because you don't use landlines anymore, that doesn't mean a great percentage of people or businesses do not.

As long as one can get more information about a particular location's business community in a smaller space with a paper directory than a web search, there will be a place for paper directories. That will change, not when people drop landlines (because they won't), but when the telephone companies produce an online directory that matches the efficacy of their paper ones.

And none of this detracts from the advantage of a business - any business - having a web presence and using both online and offline directories to garner new business.

[billbenson]

Pretty much correct Spider. I spent the 80's selling telephone switches to the 7 RBOC's (Regional Bell Operating Companies), AT+T, Sprint and MCI. In the 90's I sold internationally and have no idea how things got merged, split up etc. in the US In the 90's to the best of my knowledge a parallel data network was built for transporting data. It's still just long haul fiber. Today its fiber to the curb. The traditional phone companies have fiber to the curb or at least close to that for most of the populated areas of the US. The various carriers lease space to each other for emergency backup. Traditional phone lines are not profitable. It costs more to transport "nailed up" connections than VoIP.

In my area the telephone company is Verizon. As you mentioned Verizon wireless is a different company and has cell service. They don't talk.I looked into a Verizon line a few years ago. The costs and extremely bad customer service made it a bad choice. I'm also sure they are using VoIP for their network or at least in the process of converting it. Verizon ran fiber in front of my house and are offering a service called Fios that competes directly with the local cable company. In other words the land line companies are in a dying business and at least Verizon is supplementing that with cable tv, internet connectivity, and phones hanging off of the modem in your house just like the cable company.

The lady next door doesn't know it, but she is using a cable phone. So are other people I know that aren't even aware of it. They think its just the old POTS (old industry acronym for plain old telephone service).

My internet was down much of yesterday so I used my cell to call 411. That's a service provided by the cell company (or perhaps farmed out by all the cell companies). So a database does exist of names and numbers. Its required by the dial tone providers for 911 so maybe others have access to the information.


One of the advantages (and telling points) of landline service is you do not lose your telephone service when your electrical power is down. If you lose electricity, your cable and voip services don't work. Your landline will still work.

I think this one will disappear on you in the near future as landlines shrink. As noted above, the landline carriers are moving away from providing that service both from equipment costs and a shrinking customer base.

Also note that companies like Vonage offer business lines.

I'm sure there is a way for all of this information could be obtained and offer a credible yellow pages. I don't believe its being done now. I can't see a good business model for a company(s) to aquire this information and put it into a printed book when that book is being used less and less.

Again, one thing to remember is business aren't necessarily buying landline business lines. There is no reason for them to do that. That means that not just residencial but business listings won't be complete in a yellow pages provided by the phone company unless they are buying the data from somewhere. It will quickly become a listing of only people or companies that advertise there.

[Dan Furman]

But don't get carried away thinking that just because you don't use landlines anymore, that doesn't mean a great percentage of people or businesses do not.


I never, ever think that way. My experience does not equal everyone else's. I know that. But I thought we were talking about who uses Yellow Pages / why one should be in there, etc. I only brought up phone lines and phone companies because you claimed all businesses with a business phone were in the yellow pages.

You said "The YP directory may not be very scientific, may not appeal to a lot of people, and may not be a good place to advertise any more, but it will be a long time before actual businesses do not have a business telephone. And if you have a business telephone, you have an entry in your local Yellowpages, no matter what! For someone wanting a list of all the companies listed alphabetically and by type in their location, the YP delivers and SEs do not."

I'm saying that's simply not true. Now, if you want to further qualify it and say "businesses that deal with a Bell have a listing", I'll agree. And that number is quickly shrinking (especially new businesses started by young people).

[Spider]

...I'm sure there is a way for all of this information could be obtained and offer a credible yellow pages. I don't believe its being done now. I can't see a good business model for a company(s) to aquire this information and put it into a printed book when that book is being used less and less...Then why doesn't someone produce a decent online yellowpages type directory? I'm sure the advertising revenues that could be generated would make it worthwhile. There's a classic for google - they pretty well run the world now, why not let them have it all?!

[Spider]

... I'm saying that's simply not true. Now, if you want to further qualify it and say "businesses that deal with a Bell have a listing", I'll agree. And that number is quickly shrinking (especially new businesses started by young people).I guess I wasn't clear. I was referring all the time to landlines. If you have a business landline, which are provided by the landline provider for a particular area, you will be in the YP directory, also provided by that landline provider. Hopefully, Bill has clarified this, too.

[Dan Furman]

I understand. But the term landline is usually about the physical aspect (as opposed to a cell). Digital still uses a wire - I would suspect that most people call that a "landline".

[Dan Furman]

Then why doesn't someone produce a decent online yellowpages type directory? I'm sure the advertising revenues that could be generated would make it worthwhile. There's a classic for google - they pretty well run the world now, why not let them have it all?!

They already do - kind of (from the advertising end). Adwords is pay for play, and you can geo-target it.

If you go to google and type in "carpet cleaning (your city)" the adwords that pop up will almost certainly all be local.

[billbenson]

Then why doesn't someone produce a decent online yellowpages type directory? I'm sure the advertising revenues that could be generated would make it worthwhile. There's a classic for google - they pretty well run the world now, why not let them have it all?!

Assuming you are talking about online, Google would be the one to do it. They have the money to buy the databases from all dialtone providers and also have their database. But I don't see google as being very motivated in this area. In fact online directories are dropping like fly's.

[Dan Furman]

Assuming you are talking about online, Google would be the one to do it. They have the money to buy the databases from all dialtone providers and also have their database. But I don't see google as being very motivated in this area. In fact online directories are dropping like fly's.

I think Google's attitude is "we're ALREADY the online directory". It's just they aren't interested in businesses that don't have websites (just like the yellow pages aren't interested in businesses that don't buy a phone line from the "Baby Bells")

[billbenson]

I think Google's attitude is "we're ALREADY the online directory". It's just they aren't interested in businesses that don't have websites (just like the yellow pages aren't interested in businesses that don't buy a phone line from the "Baby Bells")

Excuse me, but I'll be out for a while. I need to hook my horse up to my buggy and take a trot to the grocery store :)

[KristineS]

There is an online yellowpages.com and a few other online phone book directories. That's the way that phone books are trying to save themselves, but migrating online. They'll list every business in an area, as long as they have a phone number. I don't know how much use these sites get, but they may get some traffic for local search.

[greenoak]

spider, we signed up for that idea with the yellow pages, yellow book i think..it sounded good etc etc.........i probably wont do it next year.
google rules!!!

[AvidTexting]

That's awesome to hear. For sales pages, you always want to split test and track conversion rates.

Congrats on your success.

[Jenb]

Internet marketing is a tough cut throat business. 200% is amazing! I have broadened my business with seo tactics and methods that have ranked my articles on Google page one it was not easy, I have been researching so many ways, I think it has a lot to do with just finding your niche.

[glenneena]

Age and socieconomics have a lot to do with who uses the old fashioned advertising means or the higher tech on line, cell phones, etc., means.