Macs in Business

[mariogarza]

Hey guys!

I was wondering how many of you use macs to run your business? In what areas or activities? Would you recommend it?

Thanks,
Mario

[MyITGuy]

Hey guys!

I was wondering how many of you use macs to run your business? In what areas or activities? Would you recommend it?

Thanks,
Mario

Out of several clients that I support, only 1 agency uses Macs and they love it (It should be noted that the IT Directory for this agency is a big Mac fan).

Personally, if your business is not related to graphics, website design, or other forms of media development (Where Macs seem to have an advantage) I would advise against it as the extra cost of the mac systems just cannot be justified (Both from a hardware purchase and end-user training/support perspective).

On that note, I am keeping an eye on Windows 8 and its future developments. If they stay on the current path of using the Metro Interface for desktops/servers then I may consider alternatives (I.E. *nix based systems which would include Macs)

[Harold Mansfield]

I've always wanted a MAC, but I'm still on the rise and I can get 2-3x's the PC for less and I've never had a problem with a PC that I couldn't troubleshoot.
I'd hate to have a computer that I had to take in to get serviced everytime something started acting up...which is what I see people that I know, who have MACs, do.

Considering that I can get a nice HP with a decent quad core processor, a TB of memory, and 8G of RAM for under $1k ( and ungrade it to 16G for $200) and run 2 additional monitors on it for another $400, and a MAC with the same configuration would cost me 4x's that. It's still a tough sell for me as a primary computer.
And Windows 7 runs pretty well.

[vangogh]

All my computers are Macs now. There's no reason today why you can't use any computer to run your business. All the major operating systems will have similar applications that you can use. If your business requires specific software that only runs on one operating system then you most likely need to go with that operating system, though today's computers will often let you run more than one operating system. I have one Mac that's set up to run both OS X and Windows. I could add Linux to the mix too if I want.


I would advise against it as the extra cost of the mac systems

I disagree. The cost difference isn't as much as people make it out to be. Apple doesn't sell low end computers so if that's all you need then yes you will find something less expensive than a Mac. However as soon as you move up past the low end, prices are comparable. In fact I've spent less on both my Macs than comparable Windows machines would have cost. I'm buying at the high end though since computers are my business. So far I've also had less issues with my Macs than with my previous computers (mostly from Dell), so long term I saved on repair costs. I also find software for the Mac typically costs much less than it's Windows counterpart.

And there's little need to retrain anyone. Most people who need training tend to find Macs easier to use.

I'm not saying everyone should run out and buy a Mac. I think at this point it's more about personal choice and preference than anything else.


I can get 2-3x's the PC for less

Are they the same quality?

I almost never have to take my Macs in for repair. Anything software I can fix myself and hardware I never wanted to fix regardless of who made the computer. I've only had to take one Mac in for repair once. Apple fixes most anything for one price too so I paid a lot less than what was ultimately be repaired.


I can get a nice HP with a decent quad core processor, a TB of memory, and 8G of RAM

How much of that do you really need? Last year I bought a Macbook Air, where previously I was buying Macbook Pros. The latter are definitely the more powerful and spec heavy machine. I started thinking about it though and realized that most of my day is working in text files. I'm either writing or coding 90% of the time. Neither is processor intensive and don't require tons of RAM. The bottlenecks I've had in the past were more about accessing the hard drive. My less powerful Macbook Air actually performs much better because of the Flash drive.

For extra storage of things I don't access that often I get external hard drives. They don't cost much anymore. For under $150 you can get a 1TB drive that fits in your pocket.

Again I'm not saying you or anyone should run out and start buying Macs. It really is more about personal preference at this point. Just saying some of the usual Macs are this and Windows is that are things of the past that people still hold true today.

[Harold Mansfield]

I love the MAC vs PC discussion. It's like the old Blogger vs WordPress argument.



I disagree. The cost difference isn't as much as people make it out to be. Apple doesn't sell low end computers so if that's all you need then yes you will find something less expensive than a Mac. However as soon as you move up past the low end, prices are comparable. In fact I've spent less on both my Macs than comparable Windows machines would have cost. I'm buying at the high end though since computers are my business. So far I've also had less issues with my Macs than with my previous computers (mostly from Dell), so long term I saved on repair costs. I also find software for the Mac typically costs much less than it's Windows counterpart.

The cost difference is considerable. A Mac workstation with half of the RAM and simular processors and video card is $5k before I even add any extras. A second monitor is $800. I can add 2 to my PC for that price.

Whatever Mac has that makes it cost so much more, I can apparently do without for now.

I also like that PC components and peripherals are interchangeable and you have choices, which allows you to price shop for add ons or replacements when you need to.
And what's up with Mac monitors? Can you only use monitors by Apple? That is a huge drawback to me.



Are they the same quality?


I've always purchased HP and never had a problem with them. I would personally never buy a Dell or any other brand as long as HP is making computers.



How much of that do you really need?


Every single bit of it.


We probably should differentiate between desktops and laptops. I'm talking about desktops. I love my desktop for work. I don't know how people work on laptops, but I know that for many people when they say "computer" they don't even consider desktops anymore.

To me a laptop is for light or temporary use or when you need something portable.

I guess if you compared the laptop market, maybe Macs have come down to a competitive price point lately. You are still going to pay a little more, but it's not like it used to be when a decent Powerbook could cost you $5k or more.

[vangogh]

The cost difference is considerable.

Only when you compare a Mac against the low end of another company. RAM alone does not make one computer better than another. There are a lot of other parts. Because Apple makes both the hardware and the software they tend not to need the same specs to achieve the same results. I have more experience with laptops than desktops. I can tell you that any laptop I've ever picked up by any other company feels cheaper to me than my MacBooks. I'm not suggesting they didn't work. They certainly did. Just saying it was obvious after comparing they weren't made as well.

You can use non Mac monitors. Apple specifically made a computer called the Mac Mini (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini) to connect to your monitor, keyboard, etc. It's just a small box that connects to the peripherals you already have.


Every single bit of it.

I'd bet you don't use as much as you think you do, though of course you know what you do with your computer more than me. What kind of processor intensive work do you do? Are you working with video a lot. Not watching, but editing it. Playing a lot of video games? Those would need more processing power. Most things we do with computers are memory intensive. The bottleneck is finding and accessing data in memory. More RAM doesn't help with that as much as having a quicker drive does.

For example on my old Macbook Pro it would take awhile to open Photoshop. It's a beast of a program. I can't say I ever timed it, but it was probably in the 30-45 second range to go from clicking to open to being ready to use. On the Air it opens near instantly. My Air does have more RAM, but not a lot. What it does have is a Flash drive instead of the mechanical drive and that makes all the difference. Even without maxing out the RAM the Air outperforms the Pro. It's not always about RAM.


A Mac workstation with half of the RAM and simular processors and video card is $5k

What Mac are you looking at? I assume the Mac Pro. And what are you comparing it to? Show me the less expensive option you're seeing. The Mac Pro is single most expensive product they sell and you chose the most expensive one at that. That's not the desktop most people would buy from Apple. You can get an iMac starting at $1,199. That's not top of the line, but it's more than enough for what most people need.

There are definitely computers out there that cost less than the lowest prices Macs. However they usually aren't equivalent computers. People like to pick and choose their favorite spec to show that one computer is better than another. That's why I say it comes down to personal preference more than anything. To you spec x is the more important and to me spec y is more important.


To me a laptop is for light or temporary use or when you need something portable.

That may have been true several years ago. Not today. More and more people buy laptops as their main computer now.

Again I'm not trying to say you should run out and buy Macs. It's up to you. I just think so many of the talking points people like to toss out in these conversations aren't true. Regardless of which computer and OS you're talking about. There's also things people say to put Windows and Linux down that aren't true any more either.

[Harold Mansfield]

I'm definitely no hardware expert. When I look at Macs. I look at the drive size, RAM, Processors, and Video Card and the Mac Pro has comparable numbers. Actually a little less than what I have now. So that's where I get the price comparison.
Now if you were to tell me that for some reason with a Mac, I can get 16G Ram and quad core performance from a 6G Ram, dual core Mac, then that would be something that I don't know and never considered.


As far as the laptops go, for me it's a personal choice. I'm hooked on using 3 monitors and having multiple programs running at once when I need to do something. So a laptop would never work for me. Not enough visual work area. At least not for now. I would feel limited only having one monitor and having to squeeze windows into the same screen area. I just work faster this way.

And I find myself doing more and more Go To Meetings with people where I'm showing them something, or doing edits and graphic manipulation on the fly, and having that speed with no lag time is essential to me. On any given day, I have iTunes running all day, a pretty hefty speaker system, a phone line running through my computer, Outlook open all day, and the usual GIMP and other tools running at different points throughout the day. So yes, I need as much as I can get so that I dont have to wait on anything. I just can't imagine running all of that daily on a laptop and not getting any lag time.

Plus the whole, keyboard attached to the monitor thing, and being stuck with that one keyboard for the life of the computer, is just really not comfortable to me. I like swaping stuff out.

Besides, if you can get faster...why wouldn't you?

Like I said, I would love to one day own a Mac, as a second computer. But for a desktop, right now I'm pretty happy with PC's. I'm certainly not going to trade my HP for a one monitor iMac.

[billbenson]

How much of that do you really need? Last year I bought a Macbook Air, where previously I was buying Macbook Pros. The latter are definitely the more powerful and spec heavy machine. I started thinking about it though and realized that most of my day is working in text files. I'm either writing or coding 90% of the time. Neither is processor intensive and don't require tons of RAM. The bottlenecks I've had in the past were more about accessing the hard drive. My less powerful Macbook Air actually performs much better because of the Flash drive.

For extra storage of things I don't access that often I get external hard drives. They don't cost much anymore. For under $150 you can get a 1TB drive that fits in your pocket.

Again I'm not saying you or anyone should run out and start buying Macs. It really is more about personal preference at this point. Just saying some of the usual Macs are this and Windows is that are things of the past that people still hold true today.

I think its a case of how you work. I usually have three instances of a browser open. One has a few tabs for recreation like this forum or yahoo open, another for programming, another for quoting and sales related stuff. All in all I can have quite a few. Throw in some other stuff I'm doing or a graphics program and you are using up a lot of ram. That is when you need the beefier computers. If you are only editing text files and maybe a few browser tabs open, then I wouldn't thing you would need that powerful of a machine.

Having said that, I built my last PC with 16 G of ram, ok processor, 64 bit bus dual monitors for under 800 dollars, so there isn't the spread between a low end PC and fairly high end PC these days.

[Harold Mansfield]

It's also about how you shop and what you know. I know people that have spent far more for their computers and gotten less. I'm perfectly comfortable buying a tower only. A lot of people aren't. But you can really get some good deals if you don't get caught up in getting an all in one and obsessing over what monitor size comes with it.
Monitors are fairly cheap, and I never use the stock keyboard and mouse anyways.

@Bill: You are the reason that I upgraded. A while back you were talking about your 16G machine and I salivated. At the time I was still on my old computer, and when I saw the one I have now and saw that it was expandable to 16G, I jumped on it. It was also on special, and tower only.

[MyITGuy]

I disagree. The cost difference isn't as much as people make it out to be. Apple doesn't sell low end computers so if that's all you need then yes you will find something less expensive than a Mac.


I would disagree with your disagreement.

When I hear people mention "Business", I think of the businesses I support (But as mentioned, I do see Mac as being an exception for Design/Graphics related businesses). I.E. Call Centers, Accountants, Doctors offices, Manufacturers and etc. With the exception of the manufacturers who do design/cad work, I do not see a need to buy them a Mac Pro with a starting price of $2500 (or even an iMac for $1,199 even though I hate all in ones) when an Dell Optiplex will do the job just fine at 20% of the cost (I.E. $500)

To put two products from the same class into perspective:
$2,499.00 - Apple Mac Pro / 2.8GHz Quad Core CPU / 3x1GB Memory / 1TB Hard Drive / ATI Radeon 5770 1GB / No Monitor / 1 Year Warranty

$1,559.00 - Dell Precision T3500 / 2.0GHz Quad Core CPU / 6x1GB Memory / 1TB Hard Drive / ATI FirePro V4800 1GB / No Monitor / Standard 3 Year Pro Support

There is approximately $1,000 savings by going with another vendor besides Apple, possibly more as Dell normally takes 10-30% of the MSRP when you place an order with a sales rep...unlike apple who are pretty firm in their pricing in my limited experienced

The same can be said for other models/products as well:
$864 - Dell Latitude E5420 Compared to $1,119 for a MacBook Pro 13"/2.4GHz
$1,269 - Dell Precision M4600 compared to $2,199 for a MacBook Pro 15"/2.4GHz
$1,879 - Dell Precision M6600 compared to $2,499 for a MacBook Pro 17"

Now I just picked the comparable models from Dell/Apple, if you want to compare iMacs to Optiplexes, or Airbooks to Latitudes/XPS/Vostros then you will still see a significant price difference.



Are they the same quality?

I almost never have to take my Macs in for repair. Anything software I can fix myself and hardware I never wanted to fix regardless of who made the computer. I've only had to take one Mac in for repair once. Apple fixes most anything for one price too so I paid a lot less than what was ultimately be repaired.

I'd say so. I have no problems putting in Dells (or HP's when the client has a specific preference) into operations that run 24/7 for a good part of the year (I.E. Call Center operations) and have not had any major failures that I can recall in my last several large deployments.

One difference between the Dell (and likely others) and Apple that I see is that Dell includes a 3-year parts/support warranty within your purchase on their business models, but with a Mac you need to pay at least $250 more to extend the warranty from 90 day phone support/1 year parts to 3 years parts/ phone support (Not included in the price comparisons above).

[MyITGuy]

I don't know how people work on laptops, but I know that for many people when they say "computer" they don't even consider desktops anymore.

To me a laptop is for light or temporary use or when you need something portable.



I'm hooked on using 3 monitors and having multiple programs running at once when I need to do something. So a laptop would never work for me. Not enough visual work area. At least not for now. I would feel limited only having one monitor and having to squeeze windows into the same screen area. I just work faster this way.

And I find myself doing more and more Go To Meetings with people where I'm showing them something, or doing edits and graphic manipulation on the fly, and having that speed with no lag time is essential to me. On any given day, I have iTunes running all day, a pretty hefty speaker system, a phone line running through my computer, Outlook open all day, and the usual GIMP and other tools running at different points throughout the day. So yes, I need as much as I can get so that I dont have to wait on anything. I just can't imagine running all of that daily on a laptop and not getting any lag time.

Plus the whole, keyboard attached to the monitor thing, and being stuck with that one keyboard for the life of the computer, is just really not comfortable to me. I like swaping stuff out.



Two words...."Docking Station" =D You will find this option on almost all business class laptops.

I use a Dell Latitude E6510 as my workstation. When I'm at the office, the laptop sits in the dock which is connected to all my periphials (Dual Monitors, Full size keyboard/mouse, speakers and etc.), but for those moments when I need to visit a client site or am traveling I can pickup my laptop and go.

Speed wise, I'm not affected. I have a Quad Core CPU with Hyper threading, 8GB of RAM, a 240GB SSD Hard Drive with an interchangeable bay for a 1TB 7200RPM Drive or my DVD/CD RW Drive.

[Harold Mansfield]

Yes, I know that is an option, but I have no need to be mobile and I'm just not ready to trust a laptop as my main computer and cram all of my plugs, drives, and everything else into it, when I don't need or have to. And the whole ventelation thing..most of them only having one fan. Worrying about yanking them off the desk or dropping them. Or God fobid taking it out and it getting stolen...and it being my main computer. None of that sits well with me.

That may changed one day, but for now, I really like the way I have it. For me it's very fast and efficient.

Now I'm just waiting for those transparent monitors, and motion sensor gloves that they've been promising for 2 years now.

[vangogh]

I look at the drive size, RAM, Processors, and Video Card

Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes it's different specs that matter. When I was debating between the Macbook Air and the Macbook Pro I really thought about where the bottlenecks were and decided for me they were more in reading and writing to disk. Replacing a spinning disk with a Flash drive made things faster than more RAM or processor would have. Disk space to me is becoming a non-issue too. It's so inexpensive now. I don't need it all directly in the computer. Of course I use a laptop as opposed to a desktop.


Besides, if you can get faster...why wouldn't you?

Because you may not need it and could get something else in its place that might be more important. There's almost always a compromise. All other things being equal yes I would get faster. All other things are seldom equal though. Sticking with the Air vs the Pro, the Pro is definitely faster. The Air is lighter and more mobile. To me the latter was more important. To you the former is more important.

Just so you know I typically have 3 browsers open, each with anywhere from 5-15 tabs open. iTunes is open and playing all day, connecting to a speaker via Airplay over my network. Mail, Task Manager, feedreader, several text files, one or more code editors, and instant messenger are also open. On and off throughout the day I open and close a couple of blog editors, Photoshop, more browsers, spreadsheets, presentation software, and a variety of other small apps. I never would have opened that much on Windows (my last version was XP). I used to have to restart Windows at least once each day and usually more. I restart the Mac once a month and usually because there's an update that requires a restart.

The specs may not look the same, but I've never noticed them lacking. I think there is something to making both the software and the hardware. You can do more with less spec since you control both ends.


To put two products from the same class into perspective:

The things is those aren't necessarily the same class. You're comparing specs. Specs alone don't make the computer. Again I think making both hardware and software does make a difference. They can be made to better work together. I've mainly owned laptops. The Macs I've owned have much better construction than the non Macs I've owned. It's a small sample size of course, but they have not been of the same quality. I don't feel the need to treat my Macs delicately. The Dells I owned always felt like the hinge between keyboard and monitor was flimsy and would snap if I picked up the laptop too fast. One actually did.

I've also spent less money on the two Macs I've owned than the previous 2 Dells I owned, by a considerable amount. It's over time though so maybe it's not a fair comparison.


Mac you need to pay at least $250 more to extend the warranty

True though I've found that repair costs after the warranty are less on the Apple side than the Dell side and I've also found that it's after year 3 with most computers I've owned where any repair was necessary. Granted that's my experience and not meant to suggest it's universal.


I have no need to be mobile and I'm just not ready to trust a laptop as my main computer and cram all of my plugs, drives, and everything else into it

I currently have one thing plugged into my laptop, a power chord. Most things are plugged into the network and i have the occasional external drive I'll temporarily plug directly in to the laptop. Obviously this is preference, but the smaller screen doesn't bother me. A bigger monitor would be nice for graphics work, but I don't need to have so many different things grabbing my attention at once. Too many distractions for me.

One last point I hope to make clear. I don't think everyone should run out and buy Macs, just because I like them. I really think so much of this comes down to preference and your personal situation. All the major operating systems do what they're supposed to. Each has it's pros and cons for different audiences.