(bit of a rant) - How much money do you need to start an online business??

[Dan Furman]

You need 4-10k. Minimum. Don't bother without it.

Yea yea yea, I know... you can make the website yourself with wordpress, write the copy yourself, you can advertise in your signature, and all those other little things, but this isn't 2002 anymore. Here's why you need 4-10 grand:

Website = 2-5k. That's what a decent looking site is generally going to cost you. And without a decent looking site, you have no shot. That whole DIY-shopping-cart, get-a-website for $100, site-builder-with-your-hosting is akin to a table at the flea market when your customers shop at the mall. "Being" on the web isn't enough. You have to look as good as your competition.

Copywriting = 1-4k, depending on site size. Again, you're probably not doing much online business without good copywriting. If you have a really nice looking site, awesome pictures, and can write reasonably well yourself, you may be able to skip this part. But most people don't write well enough to get web visitors to actually do something. And yes, depending on site size, your copywriting might cost more than the website. That's because every page is unique (whereas when a site is developed, many pages are generally copies of the first.)

Advertising = 1-3k to start out. These days, you are almost going to be forced into adwords. No matter how many keywords you stuff into your site. Again, it's 2013, and a LOT of competition has a big lead on you. Some people here (like Van) get away with blogs / signatures / forum participation to advertise. But he's been around forever, knows his stuff, and already has a reputation. You don't.

There will be exceptions to the above. There always are. I can probably make a white one-page site myself, write a long sales letter, and sell something. And there are some sites that just look lousy but have a following (the place I buy my pool chemicals from has a crappy little site and an ancient yahoo shopping cart). But again, they've been around a decade.

But in general terms, web businesses are not "dirt cheap" anymore. Break out your credit card, kids.

[Harold Mansfield]

I agree with you for the most part, and I'm actually in the process of writing a book that lays it all out realistically. However, I started my business with no money, while on unemployment after getting laid off, in 2008 when the economy sucked, with nothing more than an old Compaq Presario, a working knowledge of WordPress, and hours and hours of information and conversations on forums like this one. (That's going to make a great story one day).

Could I do it like that again? I could, but someone else? Probably not. Other convenient circumstances were that at the time I shared a house with others, so expenses were low. UE was enough of a bare minimum income to eat crap and keep the internet on. I had no responsibilities, kids, mortgage, car payment, and so on. And I did or learned everything on my own, but it was using the same skills that the business was providing in the first place.

I had also been investigating it for a while and had written a few business plans for other ideas that required money

Is it possible to do it without having the entire nut up front? Of course. You can piece it together, step by step, if you have a job. Save a little here, learn a little there, buy materials over time....it can be done. It's not opportune, but I don't know anyone that started under perfect circumstances.

But I should add, what you lack in capitol, YOU MUST make up for in time to learn how to do things on your own and do them well. I'm not talking dabbling here and there on the weekends. I'm talking MONTHS. I'd been preparing (procrastinating) for it for years before I finally jumped...since Fast Company was the hot magazine it was as thick as a phone book.

[huggytree]

if you cant save up $10k to start a business you shouldnt be in business...you dont have the life skills

my business was $12k for a used van, $10k in tools and $15k in materials

i thought that was cheap....

you have to spend $ to make $

your supposed to have a years wages as backup too!!!!

[billbenson]

Could I do it like that again? I could, but someone else? Probably not.

I think you hit on an important point Harold. It also touches on why so many startup's fail. Once you do something, you can probably do it again. When I finally got a viable business working, I had been writing and managing a web site for a small distributor that didn't really sell. By then I could write a site, knew a fair amount of php, etc. The real key is when I started using adwords. I think I could do that again even though my web design skills aren't that great, copywriting isn't that good. But I would probably fail if I tried to start up a brick and mortar.

Now that I have a partner, I will probably want to find another product line to sell. I'd write a wordpress site, do the SEO and Adwords. If I do that, it will be interesting to see if I can do it again as the times have changed.

Of course one of the most important things is getting a decent product line to sell. With some product lines, the things that Dan mentioned don't have to be done with that level of quality. You can make money with a lower level of quality in the web site and copywriting. Particularly niche technical products.

Funny thing, earlier today I got an email from a customer who was trying to buy on my site and it didn't work. I called him and he told me how bad my site sucks (and he's right, it sucks) and the message when he called and went into voicemail was horrible (I don't have a pbx, just voicemail). I told him that the IT department (me) was working on the site and I still got an $800 order out of the guy. But then that's my true skill. Selling.

[vangogh]

Like Harold I agree with you for the most part. In fact I think you could even add a few more expenses like someone to handle your accounting, maybe a lawyer depending on your business, etc. I think you'd be better off expanding advertising to encompass all marketing so the price should increase. I'd also say all of these services aren't one time things, but ongoing expenses.

However, all of these things can be learned. If you're willing to put the time and effort in you can avoid some of the costs. Most people won't put in the time and effort to learn these things, though. Some because they simply don't have the time to spare while running their business. Some won't ever be willing to put in the time and effort. And realistically not every is cut out to design sites or write copy or know how best to advertise.

It's easier for someone like myself or you or Harold, since one of those necessary things is what we do for business. It's one less additional thing we need to learn. In my case I've been writing for as long as I can remember. I've needed to learn the specifics of copywriting, but writing itself was already natural. I didn't advertise in the beginning, because I didn't have the money to. I didn't have any kind of online reputation either. I joined the older version of this forum and just tried to help with every design related question asked. Within a few months some people started getting in touch. With my blog I've consistently worked on it since the beginning. At first no one read it, but I kept at it and kept trying to make it better, and now people read it. I put in the time to learn how search engines work and so while I was doing all those other things I was able to make decisions with search engines in mind. None of it happened over night and none of it had any kind reputation behind it when I started.

One last point of disagreement. While I agree that the free site builder your host offers won't cut it, you can get started purchasing a decent WordPress theme. You can get started writing your own copy. And you can get started by spending some time marketing yourself in online communities. You're going to do better hiring people to do all those things for you as soon as you can, but I think you can start without. As soon as you can afford it though I'd hire a copywriter, a web design, and marketing person in that order.

In general though I think you have it exactly right. If you're going into business online today you need to be prepared to spend some money. The amounts you mentioned seem right to me. You can save some money if you're willing to put in a lot of time and effort learning some things, though it'll make more financial sense to put that time into your business and hire others to do theirs.

[Harold Mansfield]

if you cant save up $10k to start a business you shouldnt be in business...you dont have the life skills

my business was $12k for a used van, $10k in tools and $15k in materials

i thought that was cheap....

you have to spend $ to make $

your supposed to have a years wages as backup too!!!!

Everyone doesn't start like that and plenty of people have bootstrapped it together and made a success out of it. Sure, $10k to start would be nice, but for a professional services business, one man show, that works from a home office (and doesn't need a van or tools or materials) , you can get started much cheaper than that. Can you survive is another question.

I know a guy whom I used to work with, that was laid off when I was. He started with a cell phone selling for some guy that was buying old leads from time share companies that had closed during the recession. Commission only. From home. Cold calling!
He made enough to start getting stuff over time...a new computer, business license, website, stationery, cards, a few basic contracts and then started a business training salesmen for phone rooms and real estate companies.

It can be done. You don't need to have all of the money at once. Bootstrapping is still alive and well.

If everyone waited till they had $10k to start a business, we wouldn't have Microsoft, HP, Apple, or Dell.

[billbenson]

One last point of disagreement. While I agree that the free site builder your host offers won't cut it, you can get started purchasing a decent WordPress theme. You can get started writing your own copy. And you can get started by spending some time marketing yourself in online communities. You're going to do better hiring people to do all those things for you as soon as you can, but I think you can start without. As soon as you can afford it though I'd hire a copywriter, a web design, and marketing person in that order.


This is kind of the point I was trying to make. If you can do something that is just ok but makes a profit, you have something to build on. It doesn't have to be perfect out of the box.


if you cant save up $10k to start a business you shouldnt be in business...you dont have the life skills

I completely disagree with this statement. There are plenty of people who have made good businesses starting off using credit cards or with no money. I'm one of them.

[Dan Furman]

Yea, there will always be exceptions. Like you guys, I would feel confident starting over if I had to, and could bypass a lot of my expenses. But it is a more competitive internet these days - Harold, you mention 2008 as a bad year economy-wise. For me, 2008 was a good year in business. A lot less online competition (plus 50-cent clicks!)

Van, I do agree about Wordpress - I'm (finally) deep into mine now, and it is pretty powerful. Although to do anything beyond basic, there is a learning curve that is probably too hard for most people. That's where you guys come in. :)

[Dan Furman]

There are plenty of people who have made good businesses starting off using credit cards or with no money. I'm one of them.

Yea, I agree with this. CC's are fine.

[Harold Mansfield]

- Harold, you mention 2008 as a bad year economy-wise. For me, 2008 was a good year in business.

Yeah, but I didn't know what I was doing. I just jumped and started trolling the freelance boards for work. (oh, the horror just thinking about it).
If I had $10k in the begining, I would have not spent it properly. Bootstrapping for every dollar forced me to spend wisely and investigate every dollar spent, which in turn taught me A LOT about business.

[vangogh]

This is kind of the point I was trying to make. If you can do something that is just ok but makes a profit, you have something to build on. It doesn't have to be perfect out of the box.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. I do think you have to be prepared to spend some money, but I think you can bootstrap even today. You probably have to realistically spend something to get started. You could technically set up somewhere for free and offer services, but for even a $100 you remove so many limitations. Now I don't think you're going to get very far with only $100 up front, but it's enough to buy a decent WordPress or Drupal or whatever theme and still buy a domain a few months of hosting. In those few months you make enough money to pay for a few years of hosting and you hire a copywriter and maybe have your theme tweaked. A few months later and you do a few more.

I'd rather have money up front and before too long you are going to have to invest, but I think you can bootstrap things from relatively little.


Although to do anything beyond basic, there is a learning curve that is probably too hard for most people.

I agree and again I think before too long you do have to invest the money you're suggesting if you really want to get anywhere. You can start off though with less to begin. Where I think people go wrong is when have been online for awhile without much or any success and still keep trying to do everything themselves. 99% of the time people ask questions here about how to improve their site, my thought is they should hire a copywriter and hire a designer. Everyone likes to think they can do both, but most people can't. I think they can learn how to at least improve their design and writing skills, but most people don't currently have the skills to write copy that actually helps them sell something or create a design that does the same.


I just jumped and started trolling the freelance boards for work.

I remember those days. For me it wasn't the freelance job boards so much as it was scouring sites like CraigsList. I found a couple of clients early on through CL. Both good people. One only had a single small job. The other led to me to a few decent sized projects.

I don't know that I would have known what to do with the money at first either. I don't think I would have wasted it all, but I wouldn't have spent it all well either.

I realize I had the advantage of knowing how to build a website. And fortunately I could write well enough too. I didn't have money for advertising, but since I didn't have clients I had plenty of time. I used to spend about 4 hours a day posting to forums like this one, some days more. I spent a lot time learning what I could about marketing and applying what I could. I did have to work a couple of credit cards to help pay some bills so I suppose I didn't entirely bootstrap.

A couple more things I thought about. We are talking about online business and anyone who is willing to learn what they can about building a site and writing copy and marketing is going to end up being ahead of everyone else down the line. If you're going to be working online you should understand how the online world works. Also you can build an online business while still holding a full time job. You're going to have to give the business everything at some point, but early on while you're still learning you could work the online business after the full time job is done. I taught myself how to build websites while working my last couple of jobs. I learned a lot more and a lot quicker once I no longer had a job, but I did give myself enough skills while still holding one.

[billbenson]

A couple more things I thought about. We are talking about online business and anyone who is willing to learn what they can about building a site and writing copy and marketing is going to end up being ahead of everyone else down the line. If you're going to be working online you should understand how the online world works. Also you can build an online business while still holding a full time job. You're going to have to give the business everything at some point, but early on while you're still learning you could work the online business after the full time job is done. I taught myself how to build websites while working my last couple of jobs. I learned a lot more and a lot quicker once I no longer had a job, but I did give myself enough skills while still holding one.

At this point, if I wanted to build a new ecommerce business I would first find a good product to sell. I'd verify that I can sell it even if at first it's through sub distributors. Next, I would build a good informational site on the product line - 100 pages at least. Then I would use Adwords to advertise the site with a limited budget. If the traffic was good, then I would go back to the possible suppliers, get pricing, and put up an ecommerce section of the site.

At this point, as long as it's break even I'd be happy.

Then, I would continue to add / edit content, tweak adwords, tweak pricing etc.

This process could be 6 months or 2 years. You can't tell.

For the above I would select a product that doesn't require social media to promote it. That's to time consuming.

If done right, you will eventually get good Google SERPS placement and be making money.

There are several bail out and cut your losses in this process. The big one would be if after the Adwords is up and tweaked, you have low traffic or the time on a page is very short. Something is wrong. It could be the site, Adwords campaign, product...

Anyway, just some food for thought

[Wozcreative]

I am lucky that I am in a business where the key investment for me to run my business is something I am professionally trained to do.
I had to only invest my time. Time is also something people don't want to invest with.. most of my design friends cannot figure out how to make a living freelancing. There is a lot of sacrifices in the beginning regarding your time.

I already knew how to build websites, make my own marketing collateral, market myself.. it just involved hacking away at it for 15 hours a day to get your brand out there, modify, change, learn and repeat.

[Harold Mansfield]

A couple more things I thought about. We are talking about online business and anyone who is willing to learn what they can about building a site and writing copy and marketing is going to end up being ahead of everyone else down the line. If you're going to be working online you should understand how the online world works. Also you can build an online business while still holding a full time job. You're going to have to give the business everything at some point, but early on while you're still learning you could work the online business after the full time job is done. I taught myself how to build websites while working my last couple of jobs. I learned a lot more and a lot quicker once I no longer had a job, but I did give myself enough skills while still holding one.

This prompts me to add more to my start up story. "Started with nothing and just did it" sounds good in the bar, and financially that is true, but, I need to give credit to the experiences that came before that.

I worked in Hospitality for years, sometimes in management, so I had some basic business skills and understandings about profit, loss, marketing, dealing with suppliers, health department, liquor and gaming laws, dealing with employees, and more importantly customer service and how to deal with all kinds of people, branding, consistency, professionalism and so on.

I worked as a limo driver on the Las Vegas strip, which is pretty much "Here, put on a suit, take this $120k car that is a magnet for debauchery, out on the busiest, drunkest, most depraved street in the country and bring back some money without damaging the car, getting charged with a felony, causing any liabilities, or getting any tickets".

That taught me a lot about hustling, and how to adjust to different situations in order to make money, get a sale, turning down sales, and building a personal clientele.
Even though you work for a company, you still have to run your car like an individual business and deal with all of the things that come with the territory including making solid relationships with doormen, valets, strip clubs, kickbacks, dealing with the DOT officers, Taxicab authority, maintenance costs, and a whole mess of things and still make enough money for yourself and keep the person who owned the cars, (under which whose license you are operating), profitable.. BIG learning experience.

In between jobs I worked at a phone room, which I hated, but it taught me phone skills. It also taught me sales skills, which have really come in handy and gave me confidence to be able to sell my own product effectively, anticipate questions or concerns and plainly know how to ask for the sale.

For 2 years before I started on my own, I was already putting up websites as a hobby, learning skills, trying and learning affiliate marketing, ads, blogging, SEO, and started running a music website that was bringing in a little money.

So there were a lot of things in my background that were preparing me along the way. To imply that I had no skills or knowledge and just learned everything all at once is a little misleading. I'd actually been (unwittingly) building the skills for years.

[Business magnate]

It really matter what business we're talking about. For some, the amounts mentioned here would be relatively small. There are copywriters who charge a minimum of $10,000 for a single sales letter. There are advertising budgets of all kinds. For many online businessess the minimum investment is $5 million.

However, we must remember that money is just a part of the equation. For example, there was a search engine startup SearchMe. They had a funding of around $44 million in venture capital, and they failed. They begin with a $400,000 seed round in 2005, and they were active until 2009... Money is just part of the equation. You can reduce the amount of money you spend if you have experience, knowledge and contacts...

[Harold Mansfield]

For example, there was a search engine startup SearchMe. They had a funding of around $44 million in venture capital, and they failed. They begin with a $400,000 seed round in 2005, and they were active until 2009... Money is just part of the equation. You can reduce the amount of money you spend if you have experience, knowledge and contacts...

Exactly. How many times has that scenario played out just in the past year, let alone since the 90's. NOBODY wastes more money, with the highest rate of failure than Silicon Valley. The failure rate is staggering, only shadowed by the amount of money start ups can still consistently raise.

[Business magnate]

You probably have to realistically spend something to get started. You could technically set up somewhere for free and offer services, but for even a $100 you remove so many limitations. Now I don't think you're going to get very far with only $100 up front, but it's enough to buy a decent WordPress or Drupal or whatever theme and still buy a domain a few months of hosting. In those few months you make enough money to pay for a few years of hosting and you hire a copywriter and maybe have your theme tweaked. A few months later and you do a few more.

I'd rather have money up front and before too long you are going to have to invest, but I think you can bootstrap things from relatively little.

Great advice for people who are interested in starting an online business. As long as they're motivated and have self-discipline.


Also you can build an online business while still holding a full time job. You're going to have to give the business everything at some point, but early on while you're still learning you could work the online business after the full time job is done. I taught myself how to build websites while working my last couple of jobs. I learned a lot more and a lot quicker once I no longer had a job, but I did give myself enough skills while still holding one.

I would say it like this. (http://zenpencils.com/comic/97-charles-bukowski-air-and-light-and-time-and-space/) (Charles Bukowski: Air and light and time and space in cartoon)

[Business magnate]

I worked in Hospitality for years, sometimes in management, so I had some basic business skills and understandings about profit, loss, marketing, dealing with suppliers, health department, liquor and gaming laws, dealing with employees, and more importantly customer service and how to deal with all kinds of people, branding, consistency, professionalism and so on.

I know what you mean, Harold, I also worked in hospitality for several years. From Italian restaurants to fast food chains. It's hard, hard work... Demanding but great learning experience, especially in management positions.

[Harold Mansfield]

Also, to Huggy's suggestion that you need $10k to start a business..I may have started with little money, but I have spent $1000's bit by bit in software, computer upgrades and peripherals, tools, upgrades, memberships, services, and so on and so on. So while I didn't start with all of the bells and whistles that $10k may have provided all at once, I was still able to start and get more stuff as I went along.

For instance, I didn't have a printer for 2 years. I found ways around it, and when I could finally get one I had adjusted so well without it that it wasn't pressing.
To date my printer sits at the ready, loaded with ink and I have probably only printed something 5 times in the last year.

As my Mom used to say, "When you really want something, you make due with what you have, until you can do better". For me, the most important thing was that my product, and the services around it be professional.

No one knew or cared in the beginning that I was working on an old Compaq, barely upgraded to 4G of RAM and 1 crappy monitor.
No one knew I didn't have a dedicated land line, because I used a virtual phone number.
No one knew that my client management system was Thunderbird free email client.

I concentrated on the most important things. That I had the tools to do the job. Kept regular office hours. And could present my company, proposals, and invoices professionally. That's the most important place to spend your money if you have to bootstrap it.

If you really want to do something, you will find a way.

Every situation is different. If your business requires you to have physical tools, equipment, supplies and a vehicle, you probably can't do what I did and how I did it. You'll need cash money to get those things or risk failing right out of the gate.

[Harold Mansfield]

I have a friend that wants to bootstrap together a Home Theater installation company. He has the tools and the know how, but he and his wife only have one car, so he can't get around until after 5 p.m. during the week, and all day Sunday. It doesn't matter if I do his website for cheap, help him with promotional materials and marketing, not having a second car is a failure waiting to happen and no matter what he already has, that alone will inhibit his ability to make sales. He needs money. No way around it.

He also refuses to accept that he needs a contractors license and has to be bonded and insured to be able to go into people's homes and drill holes into their walls. He's not ready to be an actual business owner. Right now he's just dreaming about how easy it is. At this point, even if he had say $10k, he'd still fail because his mind is not in the right place.
He's romanticizing working for himself. If he started today, he'd be out of business before the end of spring.

[billbenson]

Mentioning Silicon Valley - my friend who starts high tech businesses and sells them a few years later for a few million bucks for a living has been profitable to a great degree because he bails out early on a bad idea. He's made a business of making businesses since 1980. He's only had one failure (his first business) but he's bailed out on a lot of them early.

I saw an article on winning at poker recently. One of the greatest errors poker players make is playing to many hands. Same thing in business. If the business isn't working, cut your losses and bail.

[AlexB1]

I love this rant. I think there are a lot of great points here about how you *can* scrape by and build a successful business without having cash in the bank, but that takes time and gumption WAY too often I hear someone say "Well, I have this great idea for a site, I just need $1,000 to get it up and it'll be great!" No idea about the additional money, and particularly time... they always forget about time... this will take. My partner and I have been building our business day and nighht for months now and are just slowly releasing it to the public. Oh, and my partner is one of the most talented developers I've ever met - we recently guessed his work on this would be well over $100k as a freelancer. Time + money...

[KristineS]

I wish everyone who was thinking of starting a business could read this thread. There are so many unrealistic expectations out there. Either people think they can start a business with very little money and no real idea of what they're doing, or they think once the business is running they'll have all this free time, or they forget that being your own boss also means being the accountant and the janitor and the salesperson as well, at least in the beginning. I think we romanticize working for yourself sometimes. It can be great, but it can also require sacrifice and hard work.

[Harold Mansfield]

Was just talking to one of my buddies this morning and he was asking about how I started up and asked, "So is that the way you have to do it? Just get your ducks in a row, quit your job and jump into it 100%?" . My response was "Hell no (using stronger language). That is the absolute worse way to do it if you don't have the money to support yourself for an undetermined time until you start making a profit. I did it that way because I had no choice and nothing to lose. But I would never recommend that anyone else do it that way".

[vangogh]

Skip this thread for a couple of days and wow all the new information that's here. Great points by everyone.


He's romanticizing working for himself. If he started today, he'd be out of business before the end of spring.


There are so many unrealistic expectations out there.

I think if you can get past the romanticizing and unrealistic expectations you can make it without a lot of money at the start. No question money is going to help, but there are ways to bootstrap your business if you're willing to put in the time and effort. You do need to invest in your business if it's going to be successful. To think you'll never have to invest financially in it is silly. You're also going to be investing a lot of time and effort.

How much of each you have to invest, especially in the beginning, is the question here. If you have certain skills, then you don't need to hire someone for those things. I obviously knew how to build websites when I started so it wasn't something I needed to spend money on. If you don't have that skill you either need to hire someone or invest the time to learn how. If you choose the latter route you should consider how much time you'll really need to get what you want and how much that time translates into money. For most people there's more value in paying for someone to do the work since your time would be better spent focusing on your business.

Getting back to Dan's initial rant, I think most people simply aren't going to invest enough of themselves into learning how to design a site and write copy or understand marketing and advertising to make it worth spending their time instead of their money hiring someone to do those things. That's why you have to be realistic about how much a business, even one 100% online costs. I do think you can find some quick and inexpensive solutions to get you started so you begin making the money you're going to need to really be successful. But you should be prepared to spend the money Dan is talking about.

[carsten1966]

I have started several businesses from scratch without a lot of my own money.

First of all you need an idea, a dream and the unwavering believe, drive and desire to succeed, all of that is free of charge. Do not kill your business before you have even started it by listening to the wrong advice. Find people right now which can encourage and connect you to the right sources and then follow that path.

Secondly, learn before you earn, research as much as you can about your business idea, the competition and market share you want to gain.

Third, outline a basic plan and set goals to achieve them

Fourth, take massive action and create the momentum you need to stay motivated

Fifth, review and correct, appreciate the small advancements, keep in mind overnight success takes 10 years

All of that is free, but will make sure that you are not one of the 95% of new companies going out of business in the first year.


To your success, I know you have it within you!

[BNB]

Starting a business has very little to do with the amount of money invested. I would actually disagree with much of this thread and this idea. I think the thought of "throw money at it" is dangerous and probably counterproductive. It reminds me of people who say "I'm going back to school for XYZ profession" ... thinking this will solve their problems. While that way of thinking is a much more difficult path, it's actually much more intellectually simplistic. It's the easy way out, so we think.

I guess I feel like this thread is suggesting that you can simply spend $10k and be successful, because you have a great website and copy. But I would argue that the website and copy is more of an afterthought, or more specifically, a given. Being successful in business is generally about getting outside of your comfort zone - which means pounding the pavement, so to speak. It means making calls, cold calls. You know, that stuff nobody wants to do.

[Harold Mansfield]

I guess I feel like this thread is suggesting that you can simply spend $10k and be successful, because you have a great website and copy. But I would argue that the website and copy is more of an afterthought, or more specifically, a given. Being successful in business is generally about getting outside of your comfort zone - which means pounding the pavement, so to speak. It means making calls, cold calls. You know, that stuff nobody wants to do.

It's hard to get people to understand that their website cannot be their only marketing plan, especially if they aren't willing to spend any money on advertising and promotion. Most people think of finishing their website as a final accomplishment. I try and get them to understand that it's actually the beginning and that others are doing far more than just sitting back and waiting for Google to give them placement and then the leads just start rolling in.

And I blame a lot of that on the "gurus" that make it seem as if all they did was some build a nice website and some SEO and everything fell into place. You and I know that they did more than that because it takes more than that.

There's a headline in Mashable from a week or so back, "Blogger makes $333,000 online in one day". People see things like that and think "See. Other people are doing it". But when you actually read the article you see that it's not just some blogger. It's Andrew Sullivan who spend 10 years at The Daily Beast building a following. And that $333,000 was his following supporting his new start up Daily Dish.

But that's not what people who dream of "making money onlne" remember. They just remember "Blogger makes $333,000 online in one day" and people will be repeating that for years to come because they want to beleive that it's easy. And that's why so many people make so much money selling them garbage.

[AlexB1]

I would actually disagree with much of this thread and this idea. I think the thought of "throw money at it" is dangerous and probably counterproductive.

I don't think the point of this thread was to suggest that you can just throw money at a business and it will work. I think the idea here is, as Harold says, that a lot of people think they can just by a $10 domain and "find a technical guy" and next thing they know they are selling instagram to facebook for $1b. Startup costs have decreased dramatically for online businesses in the past 10 years, but you are still going to have to spend money to make a real product: design, front-end, back-end, marketing, sales, etc etc... Now, the point of the lean startup movement is that you don't spend more than you absolutely need to to prove out an idea, but you are still spending.

[billbenson]

You have to remember as well that most business startup's fail. A percentage comes back and tries it again. Also, some people have industry experience that raises the likelihood of success. For the people that write or have a site written and turn it into a success. They probably have a background that greatly increases the likelihood of that success.

[Harold Mansfield]

My personal experience in starting an online business is not vast.

In 2011 I started a site using Wordpress but found out the cost of using this low priced site builder was going to cost a ton because I had to pay for lots of elements needed to build a site. After working on it for 7-months (and over $600 later) I had only 18 visitors a day. I quit.

I then switched to another format, one that included all the tools I'd needed for a set monthly price of under $30-month. Today I have over 140-pages and growing. I have not need to buy anything else to build my site other than the $30-month, so I'm VERY happy. I have over 900 unique visitors per day and growing. Oh. while I'm not getting rich, I did make in the low 5-figures in 2012.

I don't know if I can mention the name of the company I use, but you can easily find it by going to my website.

Hope this contributes to the discussion.

Roger

So you are trying to make the case that this other format was the sole reason that you went from 18 visitors a day to now 900 U's a day? I'm sorry, I've been doing this long enough to know that is complete poppycock. You only had 18 visitors a day because you did no other marketing, no promotion, your SEO was probably very little and the first time out, the website probably wasn't very good.

First of all, WordPress is not a "low cost site builder". Go Daddy has a site builder. 1 and 1 has a site builder. Intuit has a site builder. If you are paying $30 a month, that's a site builder.

WordPress is an Open Source CMS.

2nd, I call BS on the "$600 later". Sure, if you have no marketing materials, no images, no logo, no copy, you will need it to build your website no matter what you use. That's how it's done. There is no formula that says a certain amount of money means success. It's all about how you use it.

What did you spend $600 on? Images? Graphics? Special scripts or customizations? Most of the plug ins are also open source or free. So what cost you $600?

What is this easy to use platform that allows a noob with no experience to build a website that gets 900 uniques a day all by itself and snag "a low 5 figures" in income your first year out?

And how are you making the money? Ads? Affiliate sales? Is this an ecommerce site?

Tell us more.

Edited: Never mind, it was spam.

[BNB]

You have to remember as well that most business startup's fail. A percentage comes back and tries it again. Also, some people have industry experience that raises the likelihood of success. For the people that write or have a site written and turn it into a success. They probably have a background that greatly increases the likelihood of that success.

Which is exactly why I don't recommend someone with little funds spending $10k to develop a website and pay for an expensive copywriter. You should have seen the first iteration of my site - it was horrible. But I got sales. Obviously we have come a long way since then, but I started with very little, not a great site, and built it up using the revenue it generated.

And let's be real here, the person who started this topic - who suggests spending upwards of $4k on copy for a small startup, is, well, a copywriter selling copy writing services.

[Dan Furman]

Which is exactly why I don't recommend someone with little funds spending $10k to develop a website and pay for an expensive copywriter. You should have seen the first iteration of my site - it was horrible. But I got sales. Obviously we have come a long way since then, but I started with very little, not a great site, and built it up using the revenue it generated.

And let's be real here, the person who started this topic - who suggests spending upwards of $4k on copy for a small startup, is, well, a copywriter selling copy writing services.

That's not the reason I started the thread. What, you really think I was sitting there saying "hey, let's troll up some business, and start a thread where I cleverly insert that you need to spend.... how much do we owe on the Porsche hun??? 4k?? Ok good... 4k on a copywriter. BRILLIANT!!! You still got it, Dan!!"

You know, I have been here years and years, and did write a book about starting and running a biz, ok? I do know a bit about it, and have never been shy about voicing opinions. How about you get to know people before you start (backhandedly) accusing them of trolling for business, ok? I stand behind everything I said.

To be clear, I am not objecting to your story about how you started and all that (in fact, mega product sites like your don't need much copywriting at all - if any.) And I don't object to any disagreement, either. But your last sentence was uncalled for.

[BNB]

That's not the reason I started the thread. What, you really think I was sitting there saying "hey, let's troll up some business, and start a thread where I cleverly insert that you need to spend.... how much do we owe on the Porsche hun??? 4k?? Ok good... 4k on a copywriter. BRILLIANT!!! You still got it, Dan!!"

You know, I have been here years and years, and did write a book about starting and running a biz, ok? I do know a bit about it, and have never been shy about voicing opinions. How about you get to know people before you start (backhandedly) accusing them of trolling for business, ok? I stand behind everything I said.

To be clear, I am not objecting to your story about how you started and all that (in fact, mega product sites like your don't need much copywriting at all - if any.) And I don't object to any disagreement, either. But your last sentence was uncalled for.

I never suggested that you were "trolling" for business. In fact, it's pretty good marketing to write about a topic you are familiar with and follow it up with an "About Me" which includes an explanation of services along with a link to your site. In this case, it's your forum signature. I was merely pointing out that I disagree with your opinion and suggestion and that we should take into account an obvious bias. Of course you think businesses should spend money on copywriting. I think you should spend $4k on promotional products and name badges, too! If I started a "rant" about how companies desperately need to use my products, I certainly wouldn't be offended if someone points out that this may come off as a sales pitch.

[Harold Mansfield]

I have to agree with Dan that good copy is one of the most important things that you can do online. After all, it's still reading. Everything online is reading. Whether it be your website, or how you title a You Tube video. Good copy is the ball game that everything else you do, ALL of your marketing, depends on.

[Dan Furman]

I never suggested that you were "trolling" for business. In fact, it's pretty good marketing to write about a topic you are familiar with and follow it up with an "About Me" which includes an explanation of services along with a link to your site. In this case, it's your forum signature. I was merely pointing out that I disagree with your opinion and suggestion and that we should take into account an obvious bias. Of course you think businesses should spend money on copywriting. I think you should spend $4k on promotional products and name badges, too! If I started a "rant" about how companies desperately need to use my products, I certainly wouldn't be offended if someone points out that this may come off as a sales pitch.

Yea, you did. Or you wouldn't have ended it with "selling copywriting services" (which is pretty clear as to what you mean).

If you just wanted to simply suggest bias, there are a million different ways you could have done so.

Even putting the word rant in quotes above suggests I have ulterior motives, and that it's not really a rant I posted, but something else.

You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to me or why I posted. Maybe you don't realize you are doing it (you don't seem like a bad guy), but you are definitely attributing my posting to promote what I do. I'm sorry, but that's not the case, and I think my track record makes that pretty clear.

[Dan Furman]

I have to agree with Dan that good copy is one of the most important things that you can do online. After all, it's still reading. Everything online is reading. Whether it be your website, or how you title a You Tube video. Good copy is the ball game that everything else you do, ALL of your marketing, depends on.

Yup. But keeping this to online, while some websites do not need copy to drive online business (like sites that sell lots of products - then selection and price and such become more important), the majority of websites out there will have to convince the reader to do business with them (almost all service sites, and most sites selling just a few products).

[billbenson]

My story is a similar to BNB's in that I built a good business with a lousy website. You don't have to plow money into a professional website at first. Of course a better website will generally be more profitable which is why I'm having a professional website written now. It's just not necessary at first, particularly in a day and age when you can plop up a wordpress site so easily. Of course, when I did my site I had some knowledge of web design, SEO, and Adwords. I suspect BNB probably had a similar skill set.

I do agree with Dan, however, that your last statement was uncalled for. For someone just starting out with no knowledge of web design or marketing, he is going to have to learn those skills to a certain level or pay someone who has them.

[Harold Mansfield]

For someone just starting out with no knowledge of web design or marketing, he is going to have to learn those skills to a certain level or pay someone who has them.

Worth repeating. That is the one definite online. You either learn it or pay someone to do it. But you cannot ignore it or go without. And you have to be willing to accept the things that you don't do well, and do what is needed to get them done.

I see a lot of people that refuse to accept that they aren't good marketers. Or aren't good at SEO. Or aren't decent writers. Or suck at graphics. And they refuse to let it go until it ruins their business.

And I agree that you can get started without the best website, but your other skills will have to be up to par. Particularly your sales skills, which I believe is what made all the difference in the world for you Bill, if I'm not mistaken.

These days that is harder to do. Like I say all of the time, the way I started back then, probably wouldn't work today.

[Dan Furman]

Worth repeating. That is the one definite online. You either learn it or pay someone to do it. But you cannot ignore it or go without. And you have to be willing to accept the things that you don't do well, and do what is needed to get them done.

I see a lot of people that refuse to accept that they aren't good marketers. Or aren't good at SEO. Or aren't decent writers. Or suck at graphics. And they refuse to let it go until it ruins their business.

And I agree that you can get started without the best website, but your other skills will have to be up to par. Particularly your sales skills, which I believe is what made all the difference in the world for you Bill, if I'm not mistaken.

These days that is harder to do. Like I say all of the time, the way I started back then, probably wouldn't work today.

This is exactly the reason I started this thread. We've talked about this before, Harold, how people come to us with all manner of plans for online domination, and no $$. They want a crappy looking, crappy reading site. That's not flying today for 99 out of 100 businesses. The internet is too crowded today for that to work. Fifteen years ago, just "being online" might have been enough. Ten years ago, that was still true for many. Even five years ago, just "being there" might be fine for some businesses. I know that from experience: There weren't all that many online copywriters in 2008. There are half a million now (or so it seems).

Again, to be clear (and I said this way back in post #1) there are exceptions. There are always exceptions. But I started this thread because I've worked with hundreds - if not thousands - of online businesses. Not just my own. I've seen what works, and what doesn't, across a myriad of industries.

Like you, if I started today with what I started with back in 1999, I wouldn't make it - my crappy homemade website and zero adwords budget wouldn't fly.

[billbenson]

I've always thought it would be fun to start another web business and see if I couldn't grow it in this day and age on a limited budget. I may in fact do that to grow my company. Not tomorrow though. If I was successful (or not) it would certainly give some credibility to these types of discussions.

[vangogh]

First I don't think there's ever a list of things people absolutely must do. Not just for being in business, but in pretty much anything in life. As soon as you create some rules, someone else will come along and show you they did it without doing anything on your list.

Having said that I think every business online should do the things Dan mentioned to start this thread. If you want an online business you should start with a website.Having a page on Facebook or Etsy or eBay or whatever isn't the best way to start an online business. Those should be additions to what you do on your own site, unless you don't mind being at the mercy of another business who's interests may not align with yours. If you can't afford a custom design spend a week learning the basics of a content management system like WordPress, Drupal, or whatever. Purchase a domain, some hosting, and install your CMS of choice. Then grab a theme to use and you have the start of a site.

I do think all sites should put more into their copy. If you have a physical location then you can speak to the people who walk into your store. You can be there to address their questions and objections. You generally can't do that online. Your copy has to do it for you. It not only has to answer questions and respond to objects, it needs to anticipate what they are first. Few people write good copy even though everyone seems to think they can. It's amazing how many times I land on a site looking or something and the site talks about everything, but the few basic things I want to know. I've been on sites that never make it clear what their product does and instead offers a lot of generic marketspeak that means nothing. I've at times wanted to buy, but couldn't find a price and after a few clicks decided it wasn't worth looking any more. Copy on websites is pretty bad as a rule.

As for advertising, while I think it's a good idea, I'm less convinced it's something you have to do right away. Advertising is one part of marketing. If you have more time than money I think you can probably get away without much of an advertising budget. Of course you don't have to spend a lot for some decent advertising. $1-3k is hardly a lot of money for a business. If you don't have that be prepared to spend a significant amount of time promoting your business in other ways. If you have the money, you'll probably find it can be a good investment.

To me this thread is really about breaking the notion that you don't need to do anything to run a successful business online. It's funny because few would tell someone starting a business offline that they could do without a storefront or salespeople. You wouldn't suggest the way to get that store going is to build it yourself and you wouldn't tell someone if they didn't know how to close a sale they shouldn't worry about it. Why do people do the equivalent online? Your website is your storefront and your copy is your salesforce (and part of your marketing team too). You can certainly create your own site and write your own copy, but it's probably going to be a better investment to hire someone who does them for a living.

[Choco Revolution]

I spend only some bucks buying soloads, some bucks to hire designer for my squeeze page. I write my own content, I write my own copy ads, and the rest, I hire a virtual assistant to help me maintaining my site. the solo ads trial error is what cost me a lot, have spend hundreds of bucks for that.

[MikeAppleton]

The problem being that the need for money is most peoples primary factor in trying online marketing. They hear tales of "easy money" propagated by the experts and believe it.

[billbenson]

I spend only some bucks buying soloads, some bucks to hire designer for my squeeze page. I write my own content, I write my own copy ads, and the rest, I hire a virtual assistant to help me maintaining my site. the solo ads trial error is what cost me a lot, have spend hundreds of bucks for that.

How did you find your virtual assistant?

[kimoonyx]

heh heh... i just wanted to scream out :) Everyone tells me my site looks bad... I did it myself! I love it. cant change it into the drone corporate look... and I SELL OFF OF IT! We did a store in nov 2012... the client found our site on google. the lead was generated in its entirety from my website. I know I know... I am the exception... But..... It can be done. every single time I get the urge to farm out the site they always tell me the same thing. I am giving to much info away. the designers want me to use the info I have available online to draw people in to click the info form for contact. (this is the only action item i need from my site because once I accomplish this and can get them on the phone... its gravy. TRUTHFULLY.) and they want to cut down on the pics and videos and make it way simpler. The Pro's tell me no one will take the time to read the vast amount of info I have. I mean it, every one cuts my site down to one page and is like, give the rest out after the contact is made.

Sometimes the pro's are just regurgitating what they have learned!! My Google Analytics disagrees. On average new visitors visit 2 of my 4 pages, and my average time with new visitors is 2.5 minutes. there are many people who visit 4 of 5. Every old school SEO champ is gonna tell you to design your site for users, not google. I did that. I provided the detail and amount of info I did because I was thinking as a whole, how do i make it a preferred destination and not just an advertisement. You do that and you will get rank over time. I am ranked number one or two it varies by day, for searches like how to open a video game store... I believe, depending on how passionate you are about your product, and how legit it is. You can sell it online without all of the BS pay marketing. I didn't pay. I started to... I used an online franchise portal for advertising and it cost me alot of money. I got a few deals off of it but at a very high cost. I let someone develop my site to the point of a prototype, that I didn't go with, and I had to pay a small fee (250). I think..............if you spend time with it..... if your product is legit...... if you put your heart into it... you could do it online yourself, and not spend large amounts of money.

[carsten1966]

I dont think your side looks bad, sometimes on over optimized page which looks to professional gives the impression of an expensive service and people get scared of looking more into the side.

I believe its more important that you establish trust with your side, that the information are truthful and correct and therefore the potential client has the believe that the product or service is good and affordable at the same time. It depends on what you are selling. If you are a big corporation you better have a very impressive web presence, that is what people expect. On the other hand if you are like most small businesses, people want to see that you are like them, that you have what they seek, that they can trust you and don't feel like being sold. times have changed, even Google with the changes of their algorithm is looking for good content and user engagement through social media, comments amount of time they stay on webpage etc.

People look for information nowadays, good information which they can trust. It is true that you should built your webpage around the fact for what people are looking for, put yourself in the shoes of your clients. They want information and they want it for free. They will decide to come back to you and buy your product or service based upon their evaluation and comfort level with the information they find.

[Harold Mansfield]

Sometimes the pro's are just regurgitating what they have learned!!
Isn't that the core of every service? Isn't my plumber just doing what he learned in school and on the job?



My Google Analytics disagrees. On average new visitors visit 2 of my 4 pages, and my average time with new visitors is 2.5 minutes. there are many people who visit 4 of 5. Every old school SEO champ is gonna tell you to design your site for users, not google. I did that. I provided the detail and amount of info I did because I was thinking as a whole, how do i make it a preferred destination and not just an advertisement. You do that and you will get rank over time. I am ranked number one or two it varies by day, for searches like how to open a video game store... I believe, depending on how passionate you are about your product, and how legit it is. You can sell it online without all of the BS pay marketing. I didn't pay. I started to... I used an online franchise portal for advertising and it cost me alot of money. I got a few deals off of it but at a very high cost. I let someone develop my site to the point of a prototype, that I didn't go with, and I had to pay a small fee (250). I think..............if you spend time with it..... if your product is legit...... if you put your heart into it... you could do it online yourself, and not spend large amounts of money.

It's easy to rank when you are the only one in the niche. That in of itself may be some kind of genius, but don't confuse lack of competition with any kind of marketing savvy. People in competitive niches actually need to do marketing "BS", or no one will ever know they exist.

You either spend money to have someone do it for you, or learn it and do it yourself.

[Harold Mansfield]

I've always thought it would be fun to start another web business and see if I couldn't grow it in this day and age on a limited budget. I may in fact do that to grow my company. Not tomorrow though. If I was successful (or not) it would certainly give some credibility to these types of discussions.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. What you are doing works for you so that, to me, is very credible.

[Dan Furman]

heh heh... i just wanted to scream out :) Everyone tells me my site looks bad... I did it myself! I love it. cant change it into the drone corporate look... and I SELL OFF OF IT! We did a store in nov 2012... the client found our site on google. the lead was generated in its entirety from my website. I know I know... I am the exception... But..... It can be done. every single time I get the urge to farm out the site they always tell me the same thing. I am giving to much info away. the designers want me to use the info I have available online to draw people in to click the info form for contact. (this is the only action item i need from my site because once I accomplish this and can get them on the phone... its gravy. TRUTHFULLY.) and they want to cut down on the pics and videos and make it way simpler. The Pro's tell me no one will take the time to read the vast amount of info I have. I mean it, every one cuts my site down to one page and is like, give the rest out after the contact is made.

Sometimes the pro's are just regurgitating what they have learned!! My Google Analytics disagrees. On average new visitors visit 2 of my 4 pages, and my average time with new visitors is 2.5 minutes. there are many people who visit 4 of 5. Every old school SEO champ is gonna tell you to design your site for users, not google. I did that. I provided the detail and amount of info I did because I was thinking as a whole, how do i make it a preferred destination and not just an advertisement. You do that and you will get rank over time. I am ranked number one or two it varies by day, for searches like how to open a video game store... I believe, depending on how passionate you are about your product, and how legit it is. You can sell it online without all of the BS pay marketing. I didn't pay. I started to... I used an online franchise portal for advertising and it cost me alot of money. I got a few deals off of it but at a very high cost. I let someone develop my site to the point of a prototype, that I didn't go with, and I had to pay a small fee (250). I think..............if you spend time with it..... if your product is legit...... if you put your heart into it... you could do it online yourself, and not spend large amounts of money.

Your site looks / reads fine. Nice job.

I looked, and don't see much competition for you, though. Gamestop or FYE franchise perhaps, but it's really not the same animal.

Can you do it "your way" for any type of business? That's part of the equation here. The exceptions always exist. But can these exceptions do it their exact same way for, say, a jewelry seller?

[kimoonyx]

In retrospect I cant really argue with the points of either Bill or Harold. My lack of competition may very well be one of the reasons for my successful rank... But then again... If everyone else is doing it... its gonna be hard to set yourself apart... so if your in the beginning stages of planning. if you can take the time to think about what is NOT out there yet in droves and droves... you may be setting yourself up for a HUGE advantage... and if it IS out there..... can you do it in a place that geographically has been lacking in this service or product. Lack of competitors is absolutely one of the reasons I chose to pursue setting up game stores... there is only like 2 other companies doing it. Way better than 2,000 :)

The expression that everything has been done before is simply not true. Slow down. Think about what you want to do. How can you make it different, and i'm not talking about size, color, or focus on some single aspect of a whole racket that is played out times 10 years. Trying to scream louder, or button that higher button around your neck to set your self apart from hundreds of others in the same game sucks. We are the innovators, we are the creative entrepreneurship... I blog about it all the time, All over the web I write about Small Business. We have the ability to do great things. It has to be more than taglines....

I say leave the redundant to the drones. Let the large corporations do the same thing over and over again and wrap it in different packaging, over and over again.

Evolve... Rise above the paper... Get innovative... Anyone can buy an ad, anyone can pay for marketing. Sometimes I think too much time is spent on the package, (im not talking out of my neck here peeps, look at my site.. i show up to work in shorts) This idea that if I push a product down someones throat with enough marketing they have no choice buy to pay for what i'm selling. Its outdated... We are global now. People want to pay for genius.. not the sexiest icon. Complex marketing and crap service/product happens all the time. I think if you take care of your product, and do business in a innovative or at least customer focused way... the marketing in at least some aspects will take care of itself. The question that started this string was can I do the website myself. And the very first response was... nope... get your checkbook ready.

Looking at my own site, and many others... I think that it is a little negative to suggest that its time to abandon hope of being able to market yourself online. I do not believe that message to be genuine, and I will respectfully go as far to say that it may be even be a little self serving if these messages are propagated by marketers. Smart, Creative, passionate people can make it online... and to me that is the very beauty of it.

Mikey Out :)

[Dan Furman]

The question that started this string was can I do the website myself. And the very first response was... nope... get your checkbook ready.

Looking at my own site, and many others... I think that it is a little negative to suggest that its time to abandon hope of being able to market yourself online. I do not believe that message to be genuine, and I will respectfully go as far to say that it may be even be a little self serving if these messages are propagated by marketers. Smart, Creative, passionate people can make it online... and to me that is the very beauty of it.

Mikey Out :)

It's not about abandoning hope. But I have to be honest - maybe (maybe) 1 in 100 people can make a website like yours. If that.

There are always exceptions. I said that way back in post #1. I totally "get" that.

But I've worked with web businesses directly with their marketing. By the hundreds... no, thousands. How many do you work with? How much web marketing experience do you have besides your own site (that part is really, really key)? Can you help a jewelry store sell online? How about a plumber? Can you help them rank and convert? I don't ask to be a jerk or anything - I just want to get some perspective.

[Dan Furman]

Lack of competitors is absolutely one of the reasons I chose to pursue setting up game stores...

As an avid gamer, I am interested in your take on the obvious move to downloading new games online, and other efforts by the industry to curtail used sales.

IMHO, game stores today have "video stores circa 2000" written all over them. Just my own take, but I think you won't see any more game stores in five to seven years time.

This might be for another thread, really.

[vangogh]

Michael count me as one of the people who don't think your site is bad. I think it could be improved, but I'd hardly suggest it's an awful design. People mistake design for art. They think design is only about making things look beautiful. Aesthetics are part of design, but only a part. Designing a website is about deciding what to include on a site and organizing and prioritizing the information. It's about make sure all the content can be read and doing things to make people want to read it. The aesthetic part is about setting the context and mood and there are a lot of different ways to do that. Not all of them revolve around beautiful illustration and graphics.

I would say if you're in a niche without much competition, the lack of competition certainly helps you. You're in a good position now. You have the market lead. Don't assume you always will and start doing things now to make it harder for someone else to overtake you.


I think that it is a little negative to suggest that its time to abandon hope of being able to market yourself online.

I don't think people should abandon hope. I think copy, design, and marketing are all important. I don't think you have to hire people to do them all, though if you don't you have to do it yourself. I don't think the majority of people will successfully do all 3 things. Not because it's impossible, but because they won't want to. Some will also determine that their time is worth more than the money it would cost to hire others to do the work. I do get not having $10k to hire out for all of this, but it really isn't a lot of money to invest in a business. Before the internet that would have been considered a very small investment.

[Harold Mansfield]

Sometimes I think too much time is spent on the package, (im not talking out of my neck here peeps, look at my site.. i show up to work in shorts) This idea that if I push a product down someones throat with enough marketing they have no choice buy to pay for what i'm selling. Its outdated... We are global now. People want to pay for genius.. not the sexiest icon.

I agree with this. But no one would buy Coke if it was in a plain plastic bottle and they had absolutely no advertising or branding. Marketing isn't about shoving things down people's throats. It's about presenting your company, product or brand in a way that attracts your target demographic and generates the desired action.

Sure people want to pay for genius. But perception of that genius has everything to do with your presentation of it. Good marketing makes people want your product even when they weren't necessarily looking for it.

Case and point, The Joshua Bell Experiment by the Washington Post. Brilliant concert violinist. In a tuxedo playing at million dollar, chandelier venues, people pay top dollar for tickets and applaud his brilliance. However, in a pair of jeans standing in the subway, only a few people actually notice that he has talent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myq8upzJDJc



Now, what do you think would happen if another violinist, maybe not as good, set up a stage, seats, wore black tie and had an accompanying orchestra with him? Which one do you think would get more people to stop and listen?

Marketing and Presentation matter. Some people love the underdog, but everyone wants to do business with a winner.


Complex marketing and crap service/product happens all the time. I think if you take care of your product, and do business in a innovative or at least customer focused way... the marketing in at least some aspects will take care of itself. The question that started this string was can I do the website myself. And the very first response was... nope... get your checkbook ready.

That's not true. Anyone can learn anything that they want. The problem comes when people don't learn anything and just blindly do what they think is best, ignoring all common wisdom without any reasoning or purpose. You can't guess your way through internet marketing and design.

Online, people don't know you. They are total strangers. Your website is your first impression to them.



Looking at my own site, and many others... I think that it is a little negative to suggest that its time to abandon hope of being able to market yourself online. I do not believe that message to be genuine, and I will respectfully go as far to say that it may be even be a little self serving if these messages are propagated by marketers. Smart, Creative, passionate people can make it online... and to me that is the very beauty of it.

Mikey Out :)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. And as I said, if it ain't broke, then don't fix it. But I stand firm that you benefit from no competition at the moment. Should that change, you're going to have to compete on whatever level your competition takes it to, to stay relevant and keep the phone ringing.

I'm happy that what you are doing is working, but ( and you won't want to hear this) you are vulnerable. If anyone else decides to compete with you, and they do it well, you will immediately go from top dog in a one dog show, to just another bark in the park. And it will happen fast. By the time to see a new competitor ranking in your space, it will be too late. That's the day that you will start chasing them.

When you are the only player, it's an incredible opportunity to define the industry and be so good that no one dare challenge you.

[Dan Furman]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. And as I said, if it ain't broke, then don't fix it. But I stand firm that you benefit from no competition at the moment. Should that change, you're going to have to compete on whatever level your competition takes it to, to stay relevant and keep the phone ringing.

I'm happy that what you are doing is working, but ( and you won't want to hear this) you are vulnerable. If anyone else decides to compete with you, and they do it well, you will immediately go from top dog in a one dog show, to just another bark in the park. And it will happen fast. By the time to see a new competitor ranking in your space, it will be too late. That's the day that you will start chasing them.

When you are the only player, it's an incredible opportunity to define the industry and be so good that no one dare challenge you.

I totally agree that "no competition" is - far and away - the biggest factor in that website's success. That "his way" of online marketing would have a very hard time in the face of any real competition.

In Michael's particular industry, however, I do think he is safe, for the reason I mentioned in another post - this is a business model that is teetering on the obsolete. Ask suncoast video (if you can find one) how they are doing these days with netflix, hulu, amazon streaming, and the like. How is Blockbuster video doing? Ask Best Buy how many CD's and DVD's they sell as opposed to ten years ago. There's a reason Best Buy now has a third of their store selling washers and dryers and are teetering on the edge - streaming killed it. DVD's and CD's were a high-margin cash cow. But not anymore.

Games are clearly next. It's happening right now. "Day one downloads" are becoming increasingly available. The industry is also looking very hard at "used games" - trust me, they don't like them at all, and are taking steps now to get rid of them. The game publishers are saying the right things like "yes, retail is still vital to us" so Gamestop and Best Buy hang in there, but you'd have to be blind to not see what is happening. Personally, I would not sink any savings into opening a videogame store.

This is obviously both good and bad for him. Good in that he'll ride this wave on top until the very end. Bad in that (to me, anyway) there's a clear end in sight to that particular business model.

[billbenson]

I totally agree that "no competition" is - far and away - the biggest factor in that website's success. That "his way" of online marketing would have a very hard time in the face of any real competition.



Isn't that why niche marketing to start is recommended so frequently?

[Dan Furman]

Isn't that why niche marketing to start is recommended so frequently?

Oh, definitely. Not demeaning not having competition at all. If you can manage it, I say well done.

But in the context of the discussion, it's easy to say you know how to make a website succeed when you are generally the only choice.

[billbenson]

Oh, definitely. Not demeaning not having competition at all. If you can manage it, I say well done.

But in the context of the discussion, it's easy to say you know how to make a website succeed when you are generally the only choice.

I bet its sort of a bell curve. Increasing with competition for a while, optimizing at some point and then diminishing with to much competition. This is where the big boy's force or buy out the competition and the process starts again...

[vangogh]

Just wanted to reiterate what Harold said above. Like it or not packaging absolutely matters. Beyond the example Harold offered there are studies upon studies that show time and again we're all biased toward different packaging. You show up to work in your shorts. I do too, but that's because I work for myself from home. If I applied for a job doing exactly what I do now for some other company it's unlikely they'd hire me if I showed up in a pair of shorts (even if company policy allowed me to work in them later). No way you get a job as a lawyer or accountant or other professional without wearing a suit to the interview. The color of the tie you wear could affect whether you get the job or not, even though none of that has anything to do with how well you can do the job.

Look around at the world. All of us are biased in favor of people we find more attractive or who appear more like us. We often buy products because they're packaged nicer than the exact same product sitting right next to it on the same shelf.

Do you go to movies? Would you see the same movies if instead of all the production it was just a bunch of random people reading the same script in a monotonous voice? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even though the only difference is how the script was packaged.

[Harold Mansfield]

Do you go to movies? Would you see the same movies if instead of all the production it was just a bunch of random people reading the same script in a monotonous voice? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even though the only difference is how the script was packaged.

That's how they keep selling us the same movie over and over again. They just keep repackaging the same story line.

How many more times can they make the same romantic comedy over and over again?

Boy meets girl. Boy wants girl. Girl is dating boy's friend. Boy ends up with girl.

Or...

Boy and girl hate each other and through a series of hilarious events and coincidences, boy and girl realize they love each other.

I've seen those 2 movies 50 times. Sandra Bullock, Billy Crystal, Mega Ryan, Jennifer Anniston, Owen Wilson, and Vince Vaughn were in at least 40 of them.

And there are some movies that they don't dare remake ( so far) because the original is so good, nothing will compete.
The point? When you do just enough to get by cause no one else is competing at the moment, anyone can replicate it and take your share of the market.

[Dan Furman]

I've seen those 2 movies 50 times. Sandra Bullock, Billy Crystal, Mega Ryan, Jennifer Anniston, Owen Wilson, and Vince Vaughn were in at least 40 of them.



I've seen maybe 3. If that. the packaging lets me know it's not my thing.

[youronlinestuffcom]

i can't agree with anything OP has posted, you can start a business with 0 as long as you have people who want to buy stuff..

[Dan Furman]

i can't agree with anything OP has posted, you can start a business with 0 as long as you have people who want to buy stuff..

can you give us an example of this successful zero cost website?

[vangogh]

That's how they keep selling us the same movie over and over again

We still keep going don't we? A 19th century French writer, by the name of George Polti wrote a book called the 36 Dramatic Situations (http://www.changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/polti_situations/polti_situations.htm). Look through stories in history he decided all stories could be categorized as one of these 36 plots. He later hedged on the exact number saying there could be more or less, but the gist is most stories aren't all that different in general structure.

The link will take you to a list of the 36 situations and each is a link to a description of it. I own the book and in it Polti also mentions how about a dozen of these 36 situations only apply to Greek drama, so it was more like 24 that our stories fit into.

The rest is all packaging.


you can start a business with 0 as long as you have people who want to buy stuff.

I'd like to see that business too. I assume all you needed to do was declare yourself in business and then the people who wanted to buy stuff were immediately getting in touch, because they wanted to buy stuff and you had stuff.

[broudie]

Starting an online business does not have to be a big push all at once. Especially if it started off as a hobby. Create a free website, connect Paypal. Get your friends at your hobby forum to buy your stuff. That's as close to zero cost if you don't factor in the computer you're using.

Then grow, spend more money, keep growing.

[billbenson]

Starting an online business does not have to be a big push all at once. Especially if it started off as a hobby. Create a free website, connect Paypal. Get your friends at your hobby forum to buy your stuff. That's as close to zero cost if you don't factor in the computer you're using.

Then grow, spend more money, keep growing.

That's probably the path most new online businesses will follow. However the OP was pointing out what you need to have a profitable online business ASAP. Not a hobby. Those are pretty realistic costs and time tables for someone just startiing out.

[broudie]

That's probably the path most new online businesses will follow. However the OP was pointing out what you need to have a profitable online business ASAP. Not a hobby. Those are pretty realistic costs and time tables for someone just startiing out.
That probably assumes that you already have a successful brick-and-mortar, and are expanding online vs starting out as an online business. With close to zero costs, an online business can be profitable right off the bat.

[Harold Mansfield]

With close to zero costs, an online business can be profitable right off the bat.

Realistically for most people, including some very profitable Fortune 500 companies that have been around for decades...your online business will not be profitable off the bat, and you will never get it that way for close to zero cost.

"If you build it, they will come" is fiction.

[Wozcreative]

Realistically for most people, including some very profitable Fortune 500 companies that have been around for decades...your online business will not be profitable off the bat, and you will never get it that way for close to zero cost.

"If you build it, they will come" is fiction.


Unless you're antoine dodson, Sweet Brown, or that Kabooya women. haha. But those examples are not business models. Other than freak stardum to fame, I can't think of a business with zero cost.

[Dan Furman]

Unless you're antoine dodson, Sweet Brown, or that Kabooya women. haha. But those examples are not business models. Other than freak stardum to fame, I can't think of a business with zero cost.

Me neither, except in theory on forums.

Yea, I'm sure there's an exception if we look hard enough. But that's so irrelevent. It's funny how people want to point to the one exception that's pretty far-fetched to "prove" their point.

For example, Bill Gates did fine dropping out of college and going into biz. The odds are overwhelming that most won't.

[Harold Mansfield]

..and 5 minutes of You Tube fame doesn't equal money or a profitable business. Fame does not equal fortune. And even though entertainment is a different industry, I doubt Sweet Brown could ride her 5 minutes of You Tube fame into a profitable online merchandizing business. "Ain't nobody got time for that".

[billbenson]

That probably assumes that you already have a successful brick-and-mortar, and are expanding online vs starting out as an online business. With close to zero costs, an online business can be profitable right off the bat.

Not really. The brick and mortar would only bring local existing customers to your web site. The only way to get instant traffic and orders is with advertising. The ads cost money and you will need a decent web site and SEO for the ads to work. That means that if you don't know SEO, if you build the site yourself it will be very hard to make much money right off the bat.

[Dan Furman]

Not really. The brick and mortar would only bring local existing customers to your web site. The only way to get instant traffic and orders is with advertising. The ads cost money and you will need a decent web site and SEO for the ads to work. That means that if you don't know SEO, if you build the site yourself it will be very hard to make much money right off the bat.

NO NO NO... you just go to the forum where your hobby is and they'll flock to you.

or, conversely, you just have stuff that people want to buy.

God, what is wrong with you people... this is so easy.

[billbenson]

NO NO NO... you just go to the forum where your hobby is and they'll flock to you.

or, conversely, you just have stuff that people want to buy.

God, what is wrong with you people... this is so easy.

You mean I don't need to keep paying Adwords 600 dollars a month?

[broudie]

Realistically for most people, including some very profitable Fortune 500 companies that have been around for decades...your online business will not be profitable off the bat, and you will never get it that way for close to zero cost.

"If you build it, they will come" is fiction.

It really depends on what you're building. If you're selling the same stuff everyone else is, then of course you need to spend $$$ for people to notice you vs the thousands of other people hawking the same stuff. If you're selling something unique and taps into an unmet demand, then SEO, advertising, is less relevant - because every Google search will point to you.

I give you an example this lady whom I met several years ago. She developed a product - basically a super-high end dog mat. Did a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation and the profit margin per unit was 4000% (not including fixed and operational costs of course). This year I was talking to the owner of the order fulfillment company we both use and the guy says full container loads of her dog mats come in every couple of months. I kept imagining how many of those uber dog mats could fit into a shipping container, at 4000% profit margin each. That is pretty inspiring.

If you build it (and its not something else that's already been built), they will come.

It's also very sad that a lot of people here are cynical about this. Maybe it's because many people here have so little control over product development, or the ability to source as close to the manufacturer as possible, that it seems that the only levers you can pull to create a competitive advantage is SEO and advertising.

[Dan Furman]

It really depends on what you're building. If you're selling the same stuff everyone else is, then of course you need to spend $$$ for people to notice you vs the thousands of other people hawking the same stuff. If you're selling something unique and taps into an unmet demand, then SEO, advertising, is less relevant - because every Google search will point to you.

I give you an example this lady whom I met several years ago. She developed a product - basically a super-high end dog mat. Did a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation and the profit margin per unit was 4000% (not including fixed and operational costs of course). This year I was talking to the owner of the order fulfillment company we both use and the guy says full container loads of her dog mats come in every couple of months. I kept imagining how many of those uber dog mats could fit into a shipping container, at 4000% profit margin each. That is pretty inspiring.

If you build it (and its not something else that's already been built), they will come.

It's also very sad that a lot of people here are cynical about this. Maybe it's because many people here have so little control over product development, or the ability to source as close to the manufacturer as possible, that it seems that the only levers you can pull to create a competitive advantage is SEO and advertising.

You are 100% missing the point.

The story you tell is indeed inspiring. And very, very possible. And even common (to a degree). But what does it have to do with building a website for nothing, not spending a dime on it, and having that be the sales engine?

I'm pretty sure that's what Harold meant by "if you build it, they will come".

ETA - and even if we are not talking about websites, I'm pretty sure this lady you know HAD to say to someone, at some point "hey, take a look at my new dog mats" and did some marketing. In other words, they just didn't "come".

[vangogh]

It's also very sad that a lot of people here are cynical about this.

I don't think we're being cynical. We're being realistic. Like Dan said the story you shared is great, but I too guarantee the woman in question didn't do absolutely nothing. She told people she was in business and what her product was. She did more than create the product in her basement and not tell a soul.

I completely agree that if you can create a product that is unique and useful and serves an underserved market it's going to be much easier to be a success. The product in that case will do most of the marketing, but you still have to do something to get the ball rolling.

The story is also the exception more than the rule. Most people don't start with completely unique and useful products with a market large enough to support the business. The more typical story involves some investment in the business to get things started. In this case we're talking about someone starting an online business so at the very least they need a website and that site needs copy.

Some people are capable of both getting a site up and running and writing copy. I didn't spend money on either. I did spend time on both. Time can substitute for money where cost is concerned. When you look around most people aren't all that capable of putting up a site and writing copy for it. They can turn to something like WordPress and a free theme for the site, but realistically a free theme on WordPress isn't the best path to long term success. It can be a starting point, but longer term you're going to be better off having something more tailored to your business. There aren't any copywriting templates.

And then there's still the marketing.

I've said earlier in this thread that some people are fully capable of doing all these things themselves without hiring someone. I think it's only fair to count their time as a cost as the time spent working on the site, copy, and marketing could have been spent running the business. Still some people can get the business up and running for minimal cost. Not $0, but not a lot. Realistically most people don't have the skills though and are better off hiring others to do the work and dropping some money to advertise.

$10k isn't a lot of money to start a business. Pre internet you'd have to spend a lot more. You absolutely can start a business without spending more than a few hundred dollars and bootstrap your way to success. I think the point of this thread is that few people can really do that. The more realistic route is to invest some money in the business.

[KristineS]

I don't think we're being cynical, I think we're being realistic. Yes, there are stories about people who came up with a one of a kind product and did well and those are great. Yes, there is the occasional (very occasional) person who gets noticed on YouTube and is able to transfer that to some sort of money making opportunity. In those cases though, the people created something, and spent time doing it, and then had to promote it so others would buy and notice it.

You can be successful selling things on the web, but success is not going to come without hard work and spending some money. That doesn't mean no one should ever try to achieve that success, it just means that people need to be realistic about what will be required.

[Harold Mansfield]

There are also a lot of assumptions about how easy things were for someone, without actually knowing anything about what they did.

One of the most common BS stories is about how You Tube was just 2 guys in a garage with a great idea and then one day Google purchased it for 800 million. That's it. It just happened.
But what they didn't see was the $200 million in funding that they secured over time to run it. The expense of buildings of servers and hundreds of people to run it. And the fact that it took 10 years to get it that way with NO revenue coming in.

They never talk about that...it's just "2 guys who made $800 million from a website."

Even when the creators of these successful things give interviews, they never talk about the intricacies of what they had to do, how much it really cost and any hardships.

People have an unrealistic view of business. Too many walk around thinking that all you need is a good idea and the rest will take care if itself. That is NOT how it happens. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. 1000's of them fail every year.

[Wozcreative]

Also a lifetime of experience. Before I even started a business, I had years and years of creating my website (I started at 12 years old), and with each site i got better and better.. until I finally said, OK I can start a business now at the age of 24 and then created a site that would sell my service successfully. But it did not come easy. I didn't just pick it up.. so yes it didnt cost me anything except my time and years of experience.

EDIT:
Actually, I am wrong. It cost me $10,000 in tuition fees to learn the marketing aspect and the professionalism aspect of designing these things. Learning typography, software, how to write proposals, building client relationships, print production and sooo much more. BEFORE I could even start a business. hah.

[vangogh]

Also a lifetime of experience. Before I even started a business, I had years and years of creating my website

So true. I didn't have 12 years experience when I started, but I did have a few years building sites for myself and friends and for some continuing education classes I took. I have a lot more experience now.

The only part of the overnight success story we see is the overnight success. We generally don't see all the years of hard work and failure that enabled the quick success. Someone might very well start a business and very quickly turn it into a very profitable business, but more than likely they spent many years learning how to do it.

Not long ago I heard a story on one of the design podcasts I listen to. I can't remember which one and I'm know I'm going to get the details of the story wrong. The gist though was a designer was sitting at the conference table while the client was talking about what they wanted (I think for a brand identity). Anyway as the client was talking the design started sketching out ideas. By the end of the meeting she presented what she drew. Everyone loved it and it basically turned into the finished work. The client wanted to know why they were paying $10,000 for what she did in an hour and she replied it was $100 for the last hour and $9,900 for the 15 years I learned how to do that in an hour.

Again I'm sure I have the details wrong, but the gist of the story is there. If I can find the podcast I'll post a link.

[BNB]

We generally don't see all the years of hard work and failure that enabled the quick success. Someone might very well start a business and very quickly turn it into a very profitable business, but more than likely they spent many years learning how to do it.

Very true. I spent 10 - 12 years FAILING miserably, but with each failure was a great opportunity to learn. So I spent 10 - 12 years learning. My business is successful now, and it happened rather quickly. But it took a very long time to learn how to do this.

[jacksarlo]

I don't know exactly how much in totally you need, but the minimum I'd say $1000 anything less you can't really do much.
Time is money too, so if you have a lot of time you can use that instead of paying someone to do a task. E.g. you can learn basic html yourself and build your websites yourself using Komposer instead of hiring a webmaster right from the start...
HTML Basic (http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_basic.asp)

[vangogh]

Time is money

Absolutely. Everything we're saying costs money can certainly be done on your own without having to pay. I think there are a couple of issues to consider though. Most people probably don't have the skills to design a website, write the copy for the site, or effectively market the site. You can learn to do all of them better than you can do them now, though there's probably something of a talent for each and you may only be able to learn so much.

The other issue to consider is whether or not learning to do all these things by yourself is worth your time. There's only so much any of us can learn and your time might be better spent learning and doing other things and hiring out for design, copywriting, and marketing. I think learning something about all 3 is a good idea for everyone who has a website. How much you want to learn of each is another matter. Also consider that if you're just getting started and don't yet have these skills, it's going to take quite some time to learn each well enough to really help your business. You might choose to hire out initially and over time as you learn more start doing some things yourself.

To me the point of this thread is understanding that design, copywriting, and marketing are necessary ingredients of running a site. Some people will learn to do all of these things and bootstrap their business. Most probably won't. For those who won't be realistic about how much it will cost.

[vangogh]

For some reason this thread popped into my head last night and I was thinking about the way I started my business. You can look at my experience as an example of someone who goes against what this thread is about. Naturally I designed and developed my site. I wrote all the copy. And I do all the marketing for it. I've never spent a penny in the sense of hiring someone to do any of these things.

And yet…

I'm looking at 2 shelves on a bookcase filled with books on how to write. Most are focused on fiction, but some are about non-fictional writing and there are quite a few specific to copywriting. There are also the 3 or 4 bookcases in my home filled with examples of great writing, from Homer to Kerouac, Shakespeare to Joyce, and on and on. I've taken writing courses at universities and spent one summer enrolled in a writing program in Manhattan. I've invested in more writing apps than most people too.

In addition to those 2 shelves I have an entire bookcase dedicated to design books, not to mention all the ebooks I've also bought on the subject or any of the art books I own that also help. I've completed continuing education courses in design and development and purchased a lot of different software specifically for design and development.

When it comes to marketing there are less books and less courses, but still more of an investment in each than I expect many others ever make.

None of the above even takes into account a lifetime of experience, including jobs that helped me become a better, writer, designer/developer, and marketer. It also doesn't mention all the time I've spent learning what I could about all 3 subjects or all the time I currently spend learning about all of them still.

On one hand you can look at me and say I'm an example of someone who's never spent a dime to start my online business. On the other hand Dan's initial $10k estimate is probably very low for how much I've invested into not having to spend those dimes to get my business up and running.

[e-persuader]

You do not have to spend tons of money to start your own business, although it requires. For instance, you are planning to build a copywriting business, all you need is to have your own website. Through SEO copywriting you can start and make a successful business. Design and create your own website, use search engines and the power of marketing and persuasion. Through these steps you can increase sales and make your business a successful one.

[vangogh]

Of course that assumes you have the skills to design a website, optimize the site for search engines, and write copy. If the business in question is a copywriting business, it's fair to assume the last on the list is true, but not the others. I think the main point of this thread to suggest that in order to build a business online you need to get a few things right. These include the design and development of a website, writing great copy, and some form or marketing. While any could in theory do all those things, most people in reality aren't good enough at all of them. The majority, quite honestly, aren't good at any of them. All are specific disciplines that take talent and time to master the craft. Unless you're someone who can do all these things well, you should expect to pay a reasonable amount to have someone else do them.

[Brian Altenhofel]

It really depends on the business.

My first business in high school was DJ'ing (well, not counting my elementary school Kool-Aid stand that had insane profit margins). I surrendered a small life insurance policy that was left to me for $1,600 to invest in initial equipment. For a couple thousand dollars more, I had a system that was good enough for most of the high school dance venues in my rural area, as well as able to offer services as a sound engineer for small concerts. It was moderately successful and taught me how important it is to do something that you love.

My second business in high school was web hosting. This was before a lot of the automation tools that are mainstream now were even available. I hated it. My biggest mistake was trying to compete on price - and that attracted crappy customers and led to crappy margins which led to big headaches. I told myself I would never, ever do web hosting again, no matter how much I love systems administration and engineering.

Then I worked "real jobs" for a few years, including in construction, pool and spa services, Walmart, and IT support for a local vocational-technical school.

I went into web development with no backing - quit my job on a scheduled day with very little financial cushion put back. (Due to some issues with "office politics", I'd set a date on my calendar ~9 months in advance.) However, we knew we could pay all of our household bills off my wife's salary at the time, and web development has such low overhead that it was easy to subsidize out of that salary in the early slow months.

At the time, my main competition was people straight out of school who have minimal business skills. That made for a selling point that I was initially surprised worked: "I charge enough that I know I will still be in business and able to help your organization 3 years from now." (One of the questions that constantly came up was about why they should pay me 3-4x what these college and vocational school educated kids were charging for the same product.)

Two years later, and I've doubled the rate. Another year goes by, and I've nearly doubled it again. And demand still hasn't dropped and I keep several months' worth of projects scheduled, all based on referrals and with a 98% signing rate. (FWIW, I have one of the highest rates among OKC/DFW/TUL-based firms and freelancers.)

So yes, web development can be started with practically nothing if you play your cards right and market yourself properly. The hardest thing for me to learn was how to sell myself, especially being an introvert. But it's not uncommon for my "initial consultation" to run several hours, and I think that contributes strongly to my signing rate.



About a year and a half ago, I got tired of dealing with every client's website being in a different environment, and I was getting more and more clients who always seemed to need that one small-but-essential thing that a host didn't offer. So I started offering hosting again - sans email. Early on, a lot of it was really at a loss, but I'd learned something at Walmart: certain costs stay mostly the same as you scale. Then a few month later I had a client give me the opportunity to negotiate an enterprise solution on their behalf from one of the "big dogs" that specialize in this particular niche. I definitely call it an opportunity, because it ended up being the catalyst for me to start a hosting business.

The two companies it came down to, I knew very well what technologies they were running on and the costs of the systems they were spec'ing. The only thing I didn't know was personnel costs. I had rather aggressive sales staff from each company that I was in contact with constantly bidding lower and lower until they both came to a cut off point. What I learned was that the notion that retail gross margins in hosting are too slim to be worth it is complete BS (unless you're in race-to-the-bottom shared hosting, or using "reseller" services). Both of these companies were VC-backed, yet leased from the really big dogs in the IaaS world (Amazon and Rackspace). And both companies "minimums" were the same percentage higher than the system costs, which gave me a ballpark to consider on the margins needed to maintain profitability.

Since then, I've invested a good $45K (plus a significant amount of time) into starting a hosting business - all of it coming from my development work. Most of it has been for trial-and-error of designing configurations that are highly available and scalable while minimizing costs. I've made mistakes along the way (such as learning the real impact of "per I/O request" billing on block storage devices - doesn't feel good when a bill comes in at 8x what you were planning on), but I've also learned what does and doesn't scale well.

However, I wouldn't be getting back into hosting without today's automation tools. Just a few years ago, the rule in the IT industry was 1 sysadmin per 10 servers. With today's tools, it's now 1 per 150+ depending on how thorough your automation is. For example, my monitoring system triggers scripts that attempt to fix common issues when an issue on a server is found depending on what that issue is. And with cloud hosting and configuration management, a lot of times it's just faster and significantly less expensive to throw out a misbehaving server and build a new one.

I'm anxious to see how this venture turns out, especially since I've invested a lot of time and money into it. It's still a few months away from opening to the public (lacking a customer-facing admin area right now), but I can't wait to let it fly.

[Dan Furman]

You do not have to spend tons of money to start your own business, although it requires. For instance, you are planning to build a copywriting business, all you need is to have your own website. Through SEO copywriting you can start and make a successful business. Design and create your own website, use search engines and the power of marketing and persuasion. Through these steps you can increase sales and make your business a successful one.

"design and create your own website"

You best be a really good designer if you want to compete. That homemade look went out of style in 2002.

And you really think just "seo copywriting" will get you clients? Especially in the beginning? Take it from this copywriter - it won't.

But you *can* get business - "making a living on it" business - if you have a nice website and some adwords bucks.

[kimoonyx]

Holy Moly! :) I guess I ruffled some feathers. I closed another deal today and logged in here to celebrate my success with the group... I just spent an hour reading all these posts... some even go as far as foretelling the end of my industry. Guys, i'm not the only site out consulting on opening a video game store. My rank position is not blind luck. I agree with many of your points about some folks would rather hire someone to do the website due to time constraints, and others flat out need to hire out because they dont have the ability. My overall point was that if you work hard at it, you can succeed online, because I did and i'm far from a web genius. I guess my point is overwhelmingly disagreed with in this audience. When I joined this group...I did so because it is a "small business forum" (not exclusive to web developers) When I saw someone ask if they could succeed online and the price of 10k was thrown at them, I felt the need to speak up... I felt the need to say (hey bro... you can do it) I threw some passion in there (because passionate is what I am) and threw some things in there like "that response may be a little self serving" and boom... I stirred the nest...which I regret. That certainly was not my intention. I was trying to inspire an entrepreneur to give it a shot.

Marketers, web designers, and copy writers. I am sure there is value in what you do. I don't dispute that. I apologize if you felt I was attacking you. I have a favorite TV show...its on HBO, called entourage... I remember this crazy idealistic film maker that kept offensively calling the main characters support staff "suits". When I look back I think my comments may have been construed in the same ilk... for that I apologize.

I need to defend my industry as it was repeatedly cited that it is in a doomed position. This is not the case. My clients are happy because we do things way differently. I am not going into detail because I dont want my post to be deleted for spam... I think its only fair however to allow me to say a little bit here though in defense of other post that were allowed, that bring up the end of my industry.
Most of you probably know that it was confirmed at e3 that used games are not going anywhere at least for this generation of console, and the importance of this market to its consumer was burned into the minds of those who tried to write it off. Thats all I will say on that subject less posts that reply to replies :)

I appreciate this group... I enjoy posting here... sorry to my dudes that make the websites happen... I didnt mean to be rude.

[kimoonyx]

As an avid gamer, I am interested in your take on the obvious move to downloading new games online, and other efforts by the industry to curtail used sales.

IMHO, game stores today have "video stores circa 2000" written all over them. Just my own take, but I think you won't see any more game stores in five to seven years time.

This might be for another thread, really.

quickly here sorry - My take is that download only has flopped on console after console... it is only viable thus far on tablets and pc's. The PSP GO... Download only... Flop... recently EA tried the cloud environment with SIMS 3, Monumental failure, there are people that purchased the game that came online to play and cannot. E3 this year, Microsoft (the biggest and baddest) announces an online only console the xbox one.. It is rejected, Microsoft back-peddles, states they will reverse course. While I agree cloud gaming is on the horizon, I don't think it will nor should completely replace offline gaming and disk ownership models for some time. It should be about providing a new option, not about restricting what works. And believe me, the publishers got that message very recently.

[vangogh]

It really depends on the business.

Thanks for the story Brian. It does show that there aren't hard and fast rules in this. I'd point out a couple of things though in how little you might have spent starting up at times. In some of these businesses you had experience. For example when developing websites, you clearly knew how or knew enough to learn how. Your skill compensate for the experience of hiring someone to build a site. Also since you started multiple businesses, you likely learned how to be your own marketer over time.

I still agree with Dan's initial estimate, though as I've said a few times if you can do some of the work yourself you won't have to incur that cost. And I'll still say the majority of business owners probably aren't going to have the skills to design a good site, write good copy, or know how to market their business right out of the gate.


My overall point was that if you work hard at it, you can succeed online, because I did and i'm far from a web genius.

First congrats on the success Michael. Even if we disagree with something you say, we're still pulling for your success. I actually agree with your overall point and I extend it out to offline businesses as well. If you work hard enough you can succeed. I hope I've made it clear throughout this thread that while I agree with Dan's initial point and the financial specifics, I do think anyone can do all these things on their own. Where I differ is in a couple of points. I think the person who does put in the time and effort to design and develop a successful website, write effective copy, and market their business well isn't common. The majority aren't going to do all 3 well, especially when first starting. Also if you consider the time it takes to do all 3 well and compare that time to how much it would cost to hire others to do the work, you probably come out ahead hiring others.

That's not to say you can't learn to do all 3 things well enough to succeed. I'd like to think I'm an example of someone who's done that. I would point out though that of the 3, one is what I do for a living and one (writing) is something I've done for a long time and something I've been paid to do in the past and present. Marketing was really the only one of the 3 that was entirely new to me and I realized early on it was something I'd either need to learn or hire someone else to do. I went the learning route, but if I would have had to learn to develop sites and write copy as well I might not have.

To me this thread is more about pointing out 3 things you need to do to succeed online along with a realistic cost for hiring out those 3 things. I think many people can learn to do all 3 of them, but I also think doing any of the 3 is harder that people think and when deciding whether to do it yourself or hire out you should think not only of the cost in money to hire, but the cost in time doing it yourself. I think for most businesses the better value ends up being to hire out and be realistic about the cost. However, it's certainly possible to do all these things yourself.

And by the way there's no need to apologize to me. I haven't been offended or upset by anything you've said.

[samie]

Firstly I just wanted to say that I'm new to the forums and I really appreciate what you guys are doing and saying and it's very inspirational. I'm looking forward to being a regular user on this forum and taking in any advice that you guys have.

It's kind of depressing but at the same time eye-opening while reading the original post about the amount of money needed to start an online business. I actually worked at a call center for about 5 years as a supervisor for a very large Web Hosting company which unfortunately decided to outsouce overseas instead due to pricing.

I really liked Web Hosting so I eventually switched over to another billion dollar Web Hosting company however I'm currently on paternity leave, but I've focused a lot over the years on trying to start some type of online business, however without any $$ at all.

I've got an endless amount of hosting accounts (was able to keep about 30 hosting accounts from the previous company) as well as a lot of experience in that industry. I know so many apps inside in out. I've even designed my own Wordpress admin panel, and dealt with so many Shopping Carts. Working in Web Hosting I have the opportunity to provide professional services to customers at $75 per hour and make them scripts, or fix unsupported issues, and did a superb job at it as I have a good programming skillsets. In addition to programming skills, I am also decent with photoshop and can build websites from scratch, although I feel uncomfortable doing this as I don't feel very creative at times and can doubt myself (which I also feel the same with when copywriting).

But I've made so many different websites and initially I have a lot of interest and eventually I just lose interest, and usually it's because I can't get people to my site. I read everything online about marketing and getting people to the site and it doesn't seem to work. I feel like I put a lot of work into onpage SEO. I usually don't really have the opportunity to put money into any of the sites.

But like for example, I've made sites on trying to sell "professional services" for scripting/etc that many customers in my work environment gladly pay $75/hr (that goes to the company I work for) but when I'm out on my own I cant get any clients. I've tried a few dropshipping ECOM sites. Reselling Web Hosting, affiliate sites. Even just going on Freelancer sites I bid the lowest I can on many many different projects and I'd spend weeks bidding and not get any clients.

Maybe some of my ideas are just crappy and/or not executed properly :P But I'm thinking I maybe need to get a bit riskier and save some money and put it into things. The most I've put into any of the websites was $25 like for adwords. But I've got a family, car payments, rent, wife that doesn't work, etc. Thinking of trying to focus locally on things (already tried the local Web Hosting), but maybe like selling apparel etc.

Anyways, that's my rant :) Hoping to turn things around.

[Harold Mansfield]

Firstly I just wanted to say that I'm new to the forums and I really appreciate what you guys are doing and saying and it's very inspirational. I'm looking forward to being a regular user on this forum and taking in any advice that you guys have.

It's kind of depressing but at the same time eye-opening while reading the original post about the amount of money needed to start an online business. I actually worked at a call center for about 5 years as a supervisor for a very large Web Hosting company which unfortunately decided to outsouce overseas instead due to pricing.

I really liked Web Hosting so I eventually switched over to another billion dollar Web Hosting company however I'm currently on paternity leave, but I've focused a lot over the years on trying to start some type of online business, however without any $$ at all.

I've got an endless amount of hosting accounts (was able to keep about 30 hosting accounts from the previous company) as well as a lot of experience in that industry. I know so many apps inside in out. I've even designed my own Wordpress admin panel, and dealt with so many Shopping Carts. Working in Web Hosting I have the opportunity to provide professional services to customers at $75 per hour and make them scripts, or fix unsupported issues, and did a superb job at it as I have a good programming skillsets. In addition to programming skills, I am also decent with photoshop and can build websites from scratch, although I feel uncomfortable doing this as I don't feel very creative at times and can doubt myself (which I also feel the same with when copywriting).

But I've made so many different websites and initially I have a lot of interest and eventually I just lose interest, and usually it's because I can't get people to my site. I read everything online about marketing and getting people to the site and it doesn't seem to work. I feel like I put a lot of work into onpage SEO. I usually don't really have the opportunity to put money into any of the sites.

But like for example, I've made sites on trying to sell "professional services" for scripting/etc that many customers in my work environment gladly pay $75/hr (that goes to the company I work for) but when I'm out on my own I can get any clients. I've tried a few dropshipping sites but haven't had any luck. Reselling Web Hosting, affiliate sites. Even just going on Freelancer sites I bid the lowest I can on many many different projects and don't seem to get any clients.

Maybe some of my ideas are just crappy and/or not executed properly :P But I'm thinking I maybe need to get a bit riskier and save some money and put it into things. The most I've put into any of the websites was $25 like for adwords. But I've got a family, car payments, rent, wife that doesn't work, etc. Thinking of trying to focus locally on things (already tried the local Web Hosting), but maybe like selling apparel etc.

Anyways, that's my rant :) Hoping to turn things around.

It's not always about having the money, but knowing what to do with it when you have it. You can waste a lot of money if you have no idea how to market or advertise.

My advice to someone like you who has so much hands on experience, would be to learn as much as you can about marketing, building a brand, advertising online ( you may even want to investigate an affiliate program of your own), SEO and how to use Social Media..so that when you have the money, you'll know how to apply it where it needs to go.

Basically you know how to work on the web, now you need to learn how to sell on the web, and get people to come to you. It's true that there is "no success without risk", but the word "calculated" needs to be added to that statement.

[samie]

Thank you for the advice Harold :)

I'm hoping that I will learn a lot by being on this Forum. I feel like I know a bit about marketing and advertising side of things, just something is lacking. Maybe the sales aspect of things. Although I suppose they all work together.

It's strange, I see small local businesses with empty parking lots in a city of 150,000 people and so many cars going by and I'm constantly thinking of all the things they could do to better with their business like better signage and I pull out my phone and lookup their business and see they don't have a website, no facebook, no google local, yellow pages, etc. Local brick and mortar seems to be the best way to go I think, but definitely a lot more money to get started, and finding something to sell, but a good location can sell itself (although I know more needs to be done).

But anyways, I'm constantly trying to motivate myself and learn more so I think I'm in the right place. I do a lot of research online but it only goes so far. Lately I've been watching a lot of shows like dragons den/sharktank/theapprentice to get a feel for real businesses (and it's entertaining :P ).

Thanks again!

[Harold Mansfield]

But anyways, I'm constantly trying to motivate myself and learn more so I think I'm in the right place. I do a lot of research online but it only goes so far. Lately I've been watching a lot of shows like dragons den/sharktank/theapprentice to get a feel for real businesses (and it's entertaining :P ).

Thanks again!

Shark tank I'll give you, because they expect people to be prepared and they don't hold back.

The Apprentice? Yeah, I'll put that on the same list as Big Brother. Not exactly any real business there. It's all pretty staged and it's a competition.

Before I started my business I used to be like you. Constantly coming up with ways that other people are missing the boat with thier business. And some are spot on. It's easy from the outside looking in.

But it's different once you have control of the wheel and your every move dictates if you will pay the bills or eat. But after time that fear subsides..mostly.

[samie]

You're definitely right there. I think you get a better perspective of things from the outside compared to being engulfed in it.

And yeah I know that The Apprentice is lame :P I find it cheesy (especially when Donald Trump has apparently when bankrupt many times and even during the show from what I heard) and I also do not believe so much in reality TV (maybe to a certain degree), but I finished watching all seasons of Dragons Den and Shark Tank and it's more of a last resort. But you would be surprised, when I was in High School (maybe in 2006 or so), one semester I had a class where that's all the teacher did was played episodes of The Apprentice, and we actually got tested on it. I just like it for some of the challenges that have to do. Like coming up with apparel designs, sales tactics in the streets, sales posters, working with big companies like Pepsi, a display at Walmart for the Xbox 360 when it first came out, etc.

[Brian Altenhofel]

(especially when Donald Trump has apparently when bankrupt many times and even during the show from what I heard)

Chapter 11 is not always a bad business decision, especially when used properly. Not that I agree with it... but like other bankruptcy protection chapters it's just another tool that's available.