What do you expect from a web design company?

[peacock]

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to get a web design business off the ground, and I'm wanting to tailor my services towards small businesses.

I was wondering if i could get some feedback with regards to what small business owners look for from a web designer?

I'm proud of my commitment to customer satisfaction, so I want to make sure that I'm giving my customers exactly what they want.

If you have any stories RE: good or bad experiences with web design companies, I'd love to hear them to figure out what I should be aiming for and of course what not to do.

In your opinion what is the most important factor when it comes to choosing a web designer?

Any feedback is much appreciated! Cheers.

<please set up a signature through Settings>

[vangogh]

Welcome to the forum James. I'm a fellow web designer so I'm probably not the right person to answer, but I can share some thoughts. The number of people working in a small business can vary. I mention it because a single person business is very different from a business with 20 or 50 people. Most people here are probably micro businesses with 5 people or less in the company.

I'll let the non designers answer your questions, but in working with people I've found developing a connection and relationship has been the biggest factor in helping me get clients. I do my best to listen to what people want when they tell me about what they're looking for in a site. Not just what they say directly, though. I also listen to the things they say when they aren't talking about a site. I think if you help people realize what they want in a site and give it to them it'll continue to lead to more work.

Hopefully that helps a little and also helps get others to notice and respond to your questions.

[peacock]

Hi Steven, that's great advice, thanks for the response!

[youronlinestuffcom]

make sure YOU do your research about what customers want from a website. the problem with some web designers is they only care about what looks good rather than if it will convert browsers in to buyers. people are very impatient on the web so the design needs to cater to this

[Harold Mansfield]

There are many different types of web clients, with many wildly differing needs. So different people are going to be looking for difrerent things.
In order to figure out what type of designer you need to be, you first need to determine who your market is.



I'm proud of my commitment to customer satisfaction, so I want to make sure that I'm giving my customers exactly what they want.
This is great for your "About" page, but who is your target market and what do you specialize in? Not every web designer does every possible thing.

Who is your demographic?
Businesses needing large scale platforms?
Small Businesses who need a company website?
Non-Profits ( who have special needs of their own)?
eCommerce? And what scale of eCommerce? Small Business? Enterprise?

Do you do flash? Animation? Graphic Design? Custom Databases? Networks?
Do you work with any particular platforms or CMS's?

Narrow in on what you do and what services you are selling, and who you want to sell it to, and then it will be easier to figure out how you need to speak to them and what kind of service provider you need to be.

For instance, you won't get very far targeting small businesses and mom and pops with Custom SQL Databases, C++, Cake, and Perl...because they don't know what that is and will likely never be shopping for it.

Tell us what you do and who your target market is, and we can offer suggestions on how to best cater to them.

[BNB]

Since we are really just offering up opinions. My advice would be to take your web design talents and create a business that has nothing to do with web design. And I suspect my advice won't be popular with everyone here!! :p

[Freelancier]

Instead of asking us, you should be networking with small businesses in your area and finding out what they want from their web marketing (first hint: the average small businessperson doesn't care at all about web design, but they may want to do web marketing or some other marketing/sales activity using a web site...).

[Harold Mansfield]

Since we are really just offering up opinions. My advice would be to take your web design talents and create a business that has nothing to do with web design. And I suspect my advice won't be popular with everyone here!! :p

It took me 3 years to figure this out. Web Design alone, as a one man show, is not enough. You can only do so many sites at one time...assuming that the phone is ringing with new cleints every week. You need to have your hands in more than one thing online. At the very least have a list of steady clients that contract with you for ongoing sub contracting work or support services.

Besides the additional source of income, the experience helps you be a better web designer and all around consultant for your clients.

[billbenson]

It took me 3 years to figure this out. Web Design alone, as a one man show, is not enough. You can only do so many sites at one time...assuming that the phone is ringing with new cleints every week. You need to have your hands in more than one thing online. At the very least have a list of steady clients that contract with you for ongoing sub contracting work or support services.

Besides the additional source of income, the experience helps you be a better web designer and all around consultant for your clients.

I agree. If you actually run an ecommerce site or some other online business, it will make you a better web developer because you will have a better grasp of your customers needs. That includes things like site customization that you may have never thought of that your customer may need but probably doesn't realize.

If you have 10 referrals on your site where business owners say you made them money, that's a lot more valuable than 10 pretty site referrals.

[innovatesnow]

I have dealt with many over-seas web designers and while they are inexpensive they are not the way to go. I went through at least 10 and only after 6 months I found someone locally and had my project completed within 3 weeks. Just my 2 cents

[billbenson]

I have dealt with many over-seas web designers and while they are inexpensive they are not the way to go. I went through at least 10 and only after 6 months I found someone locally and had my project completed within 3 weeks. Just my 2 cents

Not completely true. It's hard for the lay person to write an exact spec to be designed overseas i.e. India etc. However I know people who have developed a relationship with overseas developers, gives them an exact spec, and gets a quality product.

[RCMedia]

I find that most (if not all) of my initial contacts with web design prospects show that they do not know what they want in a Web site, nevermind a Web site designER :cool:

I have over the years begun the process by helping them figure THAT out first and sometimes, what they want turns out to be something I don't (directly) offer, which is fine. THAT's where a network of other talents come in handy. The saying "no man is an island" is especially true in the Free Lance industry... and those (Free Lance) services who are most connected to other professionals are those who usually make it the farthest in the Free Lance area.

rcohen

[vangogh]

I find that most (if not all) of my initial contacts with web design prospects show that they do not know what they want in a Web site, nevermind a Web site designER

I've noticed that too. It's why I try to listen as best as I can when first talking to a client. It obviously depends on the specific person, but I've had many people approach me without realizing what a website could do. They just knew they wanted one or were supposed to have one or a trusted friend told them they needed one. I try to listen in between the lines so I can understand their business and offer suggestions about how a site can help them.

@James - Harold mentioned this in his first post and I think it's really important so I'll bring it up again. You have to define your market and find something you can offer that others can't. That could be as simple as working locally. Wherever you live there are less designers there than there are in total so it narrows down the competition to work locally. You can also look to your strengths as a way to stand. I guarantee there are things you can bring to a design that others can't because we're not you. It might not be obvious to you what that strength is, but it's there. Figure out what it is and use it as a way to differentiate yourself from the competition.

Not all small business owners are the same and they aren't going to all want the same thing. Some of this will take time, but do your best to figure out who you can best serve and narrow down your market. When you do that you'll have a better idea where and how to reach your potential clients. You'll also have a better idea how to stand out to them.

[Gabe]

I think it really depends on the customer. I don't have the significant design background as some of the other members, but I often see overblown expectations with extremely low budgets. A good web designer is incredibly valuable to a business and it's unfortunate to see so many web designers charge less than they're worth.

I think the best web design companies are good at picking the right customers. In the long run it's better for the customer and the designer. But then again, you'd better have the skills to back up the rates. Spend some time figuring out who your target is, figure out a way to track time and manage changes/additional requests (i.e. a good contact), and be willing to walk away.

Also, Harold made a good point about expanding into other areas to generate additional income. To add, if you have any sort of specialty or background in another field that you really understand (i.e. carpentry, medical, automotive, etc.) consider picking a niche and making the perfect websites from that niche...then expand from there.

[vangogh]

I often see overblown expectations with extremely low budgets

You aren't the only one. I get approached by lots of people who seem to think I can perform the miracle of turning their business into a million dollar machine all for the low, low price of $100 or less. I completely understand that most people won't necessarily know how much certain things they want will cost. There's no reason they should know how much work goes into different aspects of building a site. Because of that I typically find what they want is more than what they're prepared to pay for. That's true nearly 100% of the time. I try very quickly to learn how much they're able to spend to find out if we're both in the right ballpark and then assuming we we are, so I can figure out how to give them as much as what they want within their budget.

[Dan Furman]

You aren't the only one. I get approached by lots of people who seem to think I can perform the miracle of turning their business into a million dollar machine all for the low, low price of $100 or less. I completely understand that most people won't necessarily know how much certain things they want will cost. There's no reason they should know how much work goes into different aspects of building a site. Because of that I typically find what they want is more than what they're prepared to pay for. That's true nearly 100% of the time. I try very quickly to learn how much they're able to spend to find out if we're both in the right ballpark and then assuming we we are, so I can figure out how to give them as much as what they want within their budget.

A lot of my posts in the recent year or two have centered on this theme - I just get so tired of people wanting work, but have no money. And I'm not talking 10k / five-figure money. I'm talking they want to start a web business and they have $500. Total. For everything, including ads.

I don't have time for that person.

[IADS]

It took me 3 years to figure this out. Web Design alone, as a one man show, is not enough. You can only do so many sites at one time...assuming that the phone is ringing with new cleints every week. You need to have your hands in more than one thing online. At the very least have a list of steady clients that contract with you for ongoing sub contracting work or support services.

Besides the additional source of income, the experience helps you be a better web designer and all around consultant for your clients.

I agree with this completely with Harold. You may want to automate some aspects of you service to free you up to do more. You may offer related services such as web hosting, SEO, and/or logo design... You might also offer different packages that have different combinations of your various services.

[Wozcreative]

Most important factor for chooseing a web design company?

You need to know that they are up to date, they are design oriented and they are good developers. When you tell them you want ABC, they need to come up with better suggestions because they are the experienced ones. They should NOT be yes men.

[CiteAds.com]

You should spend some time watching these pod casts. These guys are successful designers that talk about their experiences. Helpful stuff if you are new to the space.

ThisWeekIn |  This Week in Web Design (http://thisweekin.com/thisweekin-web/)

[vangogh]

I'm talking they want to start a web business and they have $500. Total. For everything

I've had people approach me thinking they could spend more like $100 for both a site and for me to press the magic button that gives them the mythical #1 ranking that drives millions of paying customers their way.

You don't need as much money to start a business online than you would if your business is in a physical location that you need to lease. In either case you now have the ability to reach many more people and usually at a price less than what an ad cost before the internet. You can even target your ads better so you're spending advertising money more efficiently.

You still have to be willing to spend money or time to have a business online, though if your choice is to spend the time you shouldn't be looking to hire people to do the work.

[Ted]

I was wondering if i could get some feedback with regards to what small business owners look for from a web designer?

In your opinion what is the most important factor when it comes to choosing a web designer?

Any feedback is much appreciated! Cheers.


If I was looking for a web designer to redesign my existing website or to design a website for a new business here is what I would look for:

1) I would prefer someone local to my area because I prefer supporting local businesses

2) I would insist on seeing sample work so that I could judge how “professional” the site design looks. (I prefer the look of customized sites as opposed to ones that look like a template was used.) I would expect a total custom high-end site to cost a lot more than a template filler.

3) I would look for someone who does very “professional & customized” looking work who is within my price range. First I would look for someone who does good high quality work. If I found someone who does the kind of work I want for my site, then I would check their price to see if I can afford them or not. If their price seems cheaper than I expected, then I will seek to hire them right away. If their price seems about what I expected to pay or more than I expected to pay, then I will probably keep looking at least a little more.

4) When I contact a web designer either the first time or any time thereafter, I would expect a prompt reply. That means if I can’t get them on the phone immediately when I call, then I would expect to get a call back or an email back within the hour. If they didn’t respond to my call within a reasonable amount of time, then I would probably have a negative opinion of that person and keep my eyes open for someone better. In more than 20 years in business I have learned that a person’s response time (for phone calls) is a pretty good indicator of whether or not you want to do business with them.

5) I would expect them to be able to start on my site design within a matter of weeks not months. I would wait months if I had to, but I would not be happy about it. If they said it would be months before getting started, then during that time frame I may or may not keep my eyes open for someone who could start sooner.

6) I would expect the website design to be completed within about 2 months from the date the designer said they would start on it so long as it was a basic website with a handful of pages. If it was a more elaborate site, I would expect it to take longer.

I would weigh all of those factors against each other trying to find the perfect fit. If I came across someone good who seemed like a perfect fit, then I would want to start the relationship immediately and probably stop looking for a designer at that point.



I am going to brainstorm for a minute to come up with ideas for things that might grab my attention and interest if I was shopping for a web designer right now:

Stunning Website Designs built from scratch and customized for your business.

High Quality Workmanship that will make your customers think you spent a million dollars on your site.

Very reasonable prices for the quality of work you get.

Local web design guy/girl you can work with and talk to who will actually return your phone calls

$10,000 custom website design for local (insert your city) businesses selling for $1,500 that is guaranteed to impress and WOW! your customers. We will build you a website that will make you the most professional looking business in (insert your city). When a potential customer sees your website for the first time, they will get the impression that you are a well established, professional, high quality business enterprise. Your competitors will look like amateurs compared to you.



Here is an approach to building a local customer base that I doubt very many web designers have thought of or bothered trying to implement:

If I was brand new to the web design business and wanted to establish myself, I would approach three kinds of people at first. I would contact local accountants, local business attorneys and local computer shops. I would offer to create a brand new website for them 100% completely free of charge if they would be willing to openly recommend me to their business owner clients. I would use those opportunities to build great looking websites that would be my base portfolio. Most of these people will probably say “No Thanks”. If that happened, then I would kindly ask them to mention my name anyway if one of their business owner clients doesn't know who to call for website design. Then I would send them a personal thank you card in the snail mail along with a business card and a lottery ticket. In the thank you card I would thank them for speaking to me and wish them luck with the lottery ticket.

That one simple gesture would cause them to remember you. They would remember the guy who sent them a lottery ticket as a simple thank you gesture. If you just said thanks on the phone instead of doing this, then they would probably forget about you within a month or so. By sending them that Thank You card along with the lottery ticket, you would be remembered.

The reason I would approach accountants, IT people and business lawyers is because those people interact with business owners a lot. Business owners will talk about their headaches with those kinds of people. It is very likely that a business owner would ask one of these advisors if they could recommend anyone for their website.

[Freelancier]

We just had a client task us with coming up with a whole new web site look for them. We're not designers at all, but we stepped back and looked at what they had -- which looked a lot like a template -- and then what their competition had (which also looked a lot like templates, but the bigger the company, the more unique artwork they included) and what they wanted, which they could only convey as imagery. Interesting problem.

So we talked about it for a while. What most web designers are doing these days look just like any template I can get for $60 online somewhere... big space for banner on the main page, a certain number of boxes for text, images from a photo site, lots of white space, rounded corners if anything has a corner, pull-down menus, etc. If you want to be that person, I'm happy for you if you can make a living, but don't expect me to pay you a lot, because your competition is that $60 template.

Then there are the "designers" who are stuck on fonts and colors and can't seem to do much more and call themselves "logo designers" or even "graphics designers". Please.

What we needed for our task was more of an "illustrator". Someone who could take that imagery the client was describing and create new images that took the idea and ran with it. We wanted a doodler, someone who thought in pictures and not pixels. Because their viewpoint would be more unique and help us create a brand from the images that excited the customer.

Does this answer the OP's original question about what do small businesses want from a web designer? Nope. But it does help define that there is more than one way to be a designer and you can run with the herd and create things that look like templates or fonts+colors (and make an okay living at it, no harm in that)... or you can step up to the next level and bring more creativity to the process and start thinking about these things as corporate branding opportunities and not just "web design".

[Harold Mansfield]

You know....a lot of what I hear from non designers...is that you seem to make a lot of assumptions about Designers without ever taking into consideration what the client asks for.

First of all, the reason that so many websites look like "templates" is because there's only about 10 ways to build a website that are actually user friendly.

If you take 100 business websites, the layouts are predominantly the same for a reason...logo top left, top navigation, important info above the fold, dark colored fonts on light backgrounds and so on, because that's what works. We know the heat spots on the page, how long a user is going to hunt around for things, where the eyes are drawn to, what layouts get the most user feedback, and interaction and directs people to take action.

You don't see websites with red backgrounds and yellow 10 pt fonts for a reason. Bank websites don't use dark backgrounds and flash animation intros for a reason.

Just like a house starts with a concrete slab foundation and 4 walls, and a car has 4 wheels. So does a website. And most can do it either way..I can code that from scratch for this price, or start with this foundation, add some coding, the layout and functions you want, add original graphics, fonts, add and so on and you will get exactly what you want and it will be $2k cheaper. Which do you think most small businesses choose?

Now, there are a million variations on that theme, mostly having to do with graphics, photography, fonts and colors...but the basic principle is the same, or your average users will get lost and your website...while pretty, it will be worthless as a marketing tool.

Now obviously websites with different missions can take more chances on reinventing the wheel. Nightclubs, for instance, have the kind of demographic that you can take bold design risks with. There are some clients that want all design and graphics...it just depends on what kind of site they are looking to build. It's not all the same, so every website is not an opportunity to win a design contest.

You are also (many times) limited by the materials that you are given. Some clients have crappy stuff. Crappy images. Crappy logo. And will not spend to have it redone. They want you to make thier crap look good. I can do miracles, but there is only so much you can do when you are limited to the collateral that they INSIST you use and nothing else.

Every website I've ever done is not in my portfolio for a reason. Sure, I did what they asked and they are happy, but it's not always my most creative work.

A good web designer will know his client AND the demographic and industry that they are targeting. If you think breaking the mold and building something worthy of the Getty Museum is the right way to go for the AARP crowd who barely know how to use email, then you aren't a good web designer.

Your website isn't for you. It's for them...strangers that you know nothing about or how web savvy they are. You need to measure creativity, with whether or not it will do it's job.

Every designer would love for every website they do to be a personal expression of thier own creativity and present every business in thier own eyes. And you can do that if it's just a hobby. But when you do it for a living, you do the job that people ask you to do.

About Templates:

Given 5 examples from a client of what the want their website to look like, I'll find 5 templates that look exactly like it. The average person may not see it because they are distracted by things like colors...but any designer can look past that and see the exact same framework. It's been a long time since I saw a business website that is completely original. And anyone that wants to challenge me on that, I will gladly play the "It looks just like this one" game. And that includes every single one of your websites and mine. Sure, there are subtle differences, creative functionalities, and presentations... but the framework is the same.

There are exceptions when you get into the 5 figure and up range and are talking about companies with teams of designers and engineers that work on the site 24/7, but that's not where most people are and many of those are more about functionality and programming NOT merely design.

If you take the top 3 websites in the world, Facebook, Google, and Amazon. It's the proprietary programming that makes those sites. Anyone can recreate the look, which in those cases is nothing special, but you can't rebuild the site.

Templates are created by designers and their target market is generally service providers. While many can suck, some of them are pretty bad ass designs and can be pretty complicated to use because you still need to know code and the basic principles of design. To say that using a template to get the client what they ask for (on budget) makes a designer sub par, is like saying a mechanic that uses after market parts out of the box is sub par because he didn't cast and tool them himself.

I get work specifically to help people customize templates. It's 2013. You need to be flexible with what is out there, not sit obtuse with "If I don't do it on Dreamweaver and write everything by hand, then its not really web design". Really? Then I'll be more than happy to take your "non web design" work.

If you are in business as a web person, it's about servicing the client with what they want. Sometimes you get lucky and can go wild, but most times you give them what they ask for and make your money. You can really piss people off by ignoring what they want in order to push your own agenda of style.

Another thing that no one ever considers when they are judging designers:

These days there's a strong push from small businesses owners ( 52% of which are one man shows) to have a website that they can run and make changes on themselves. There goes 50% of your ideas. You may have the ability to create something that goes down in the history books, but that is obviously done with code. So are you going to ignore what they just told you and build something that is all code for someone who doesn't know code? At most you can get away with HTML. But you can't drop PHP, JS and CSS (for example) on people who JUST TOLD YOU they want to be able to make basic changes themselves.

Half of my new clients are redesigns. Businesses owners wanting to do away with the website that they had built as soon as 2 years ago, because they can't manage it and it's too costly to pay someone every time the need to add a page or swap out an image. Or they hired based on pretty alone and now realize that it's too confusing for their clients or they have outgrow it.

So you have to come up with a way to do both, without leaving the client in the dark. There's only so many things that you can do in that instance. So what are you going to do? Try to win a design contest, or service your client the way they asked. That doesn't mean that it's not going to be beautiful, and professional, but there is more to consider and when a choice has to be made between style and function...function wins.

The last thing is, every person that works on a computer doesn't do every thing. There are many types of designers. Some graphic designers aren't good web designers and some good programmers and web designers aren't graphic designers. Or do flash. Or animation. Or copy write. and so on and so on.

Some graphic designers are good web designers as long as it's all about graphics, colors and fonts. But the minute someone needs memebership, community, or ecommerce functionality that needs to be created and managed from an admin panel, they are done.

Part of choosing a web designer is matching their skills with your needs. If you need someone who does animation and you keep looking for graphic designers only, you are hoping to get lucky because it's not the same.

So while this thread does provide some valuable feedback, ultimately it is going to be your responsibility to know what you are looking for in order for you to find the people that know how to do it. It's easy to call 10 logo designers, and then sit back and complain that you can't find anyone to do a video. That's not the designers fault or limitation. If you are lucky you'll find someone that has a team that can do many things, but you will NEVER find one company that does every possible thing.

And if you need things like Corporate branding, and marketing, you may need to hire people who specialize in that. Are you going to hire a mechanic to write your company mission statement? Why? Get the best people for the job. Don't expect everyone to do the all of the jobs that you need. And yes, you may need to hire more than one person.

When you are looking at a web designer's portfolio, you can't judge it by the sites alone. It is likely a collection of things that people asked for, than it is a personal scrap book of skills. You have to look at who it was built for and you may understand why it was built that way. It's not all the same.

...and of course some people are just horrible even with the simple stuff.

[omid]

I had the same problem! Well, because I could not afford it here I decided to work with overseas designers. I am totally confident they learnt so much from me than the place they studied! No insult though! I think the reason is the taste! In one country designers use 2-3 colours and in one other the website is like a rainbow! In some countries websites are going toward using real images compared to some other places. It took me a longer time to finish my project but of course I paid less even though it was longer!

[Dan Furman]

Templates are created by designers and their target market is generally service providers. While many can suck, some of them are pretty bad ass designs and can be pretty complicated to use because you still need to know code and the basic principles of design. To say that using a template to get the client what they ask for (on budget) makes a designer sub par, is like saying a mechanic that uses after market parts out of the box is sub par because he didn't cast and tool them himself.

I get work specifically to help people customize templates. It's 2013. You need to be flexible with what is out there, not sit obtuse with "If I don't do it on Dreamweaver and write everything by hand, then its not really web design". Really? Then I'll be more than happy to take your "non web design" work.

*snip*

...and of course some people are just horrible even with the simple stuff.

This is how I see templates too. They have become fairly complicated (anything nice, anyway). I'm a pretty good computer/web guy (better than, say, 90% of non-IT businesspeople out there), and I definitely need help with them. They aren't quite plug and play. It's cheaper to pay someone than go through the readme, half of which I don't understand (my skills prettymuch stopped in 2008 or so.) I just don't have time to learn / re-learn - better to pay someone like you or Steve to do it.

[vangogh]

You know....a lot of what I hear from non designers...is that you seem to make a lot of assumptions about Designers without ever taking into consideration what the client asks for

Yep. I think there's also a big misconception about what a web designer does. I always hear everyone focus on how things look, but design is more than how something looks. It's how it works.


$10,000 custom website design for local (insert your city) businesses selling for $1,500 that is guaranteed to impress and WOW!

Sounds great for the customer, but not so great for the designer. It takes a lot of time to Wow! a client, generally many more hours than $1500 buys. I also find that most clients don't want Wow! As soon as you give it to them they want to change the color because they like blue instead of red. They want to move an item from here to there, and so on.

A large part of why you see template looking sites is because it's what clients ultimately want. 95% of the time I find that when people approach me, what they want far exceeds their budget. It's understandable. I don't think the typical person is aware of how much work goes into building a custom design. In many ways good design is invisible. For example most people landing on a site where the typography is done well, don't think about the typography. They simply know the site is easy to read. They don't see the 10 hours the designer spent choosing an appropriate font and experimenting with different font sizes. They don't see the work that went into make sure a line of text is never too long or too short and they don't see the time that went into providing the right amount of space between each line of text and each paragraph. And that's just ordinary paragraphs of text. Extend that to the different headings on the page, image captions, navigation labels, etc.

I could say the same about designing all the other aspects of a website without even getting to the part where the thing needs to be coded.

Obviously not everyone can afford to spend thousands of dollars having a custom design created for them. Most of the people who contact me are much closer to the $60 price point than than the $10,000 price point. I'm sorry, but to stay in business I can't give spend months working on a client's site unless I'm going to get a fee to pay for a few months of bills.

The main reason you see templates is because the majority don't really understand the value of good design so when someone offers it to them they think it's too expensive and think the designer is trying to rip them off. That may be true in some cases, but it's hardly all cases. Good design works and while it's not inexpensive it's a good investment.

[Ted]

Please read all my posts in this particular thread from the viewpoint that I am a paying customer for web design services. That is the perspective I am trying to add to the conversation which is what I think the original poster was hoping to get feedback on.


Regarding templates: I don’t care what business you are in. If you give your customers the impression that you are overcharging them for what you are doing, then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

The very first time I hired a CPA to do my income taxes was when I launched my first business in the early 1990’s. The guy charged me $250/hour. I met with him at his office. He asked me for the figures from my business. I watched him type those figures into a computer program. The computer program then spit out my tax return minutes later. I think I was in his office for all of 20 minutes. Cost to me - $250.

At that time I felt cheated and overcharged because, to me, all I saw was a guy typing figures that I gave him into his computer and charging me $250/hour to do it. I was pissed. I felt like, why don’t I just buy the program and type them in myself. I never went back to that CPA again. That guy added zero value to his service. He wasn't asking me anything to make sure my figures were accurate. I may as well have done the tax return myself and saved the $250. $250 for twenty minutes feels a lot like $750 per hour.


Web Design Templates – I have visited many websites of web designers. On many of them, the designer shows you examples of websites where the sample websites contain the “Lorem Ipsum” text that you see written on templates. As soon as I see that on their sample websites, I get the sense that all this person is doing is typing my text into a template and making some minor tweaks to that template. So to me, once again I think of this CPA experience where a guy charged me a ridiculous amount of money to type some figures into his computer.

If I thought a designer was using a template, I would envision him/her spending 5 hours customizing a template and then charging me $1,500 for it.

***Hint- If it feels like you are charging more than a lawyer or CPA, then you are going to have a tough time selling yourself to the average small business owner.

So, as soon as I see a “Lorem Ipsum” template used as an example like that, I see that designer as being an “untalented” drone who is just going through mechanical motions. Is that fair to that designer? Maybe not. But, as a consumer, that is how it feels to me. And if you want to win business and build clientele, then you had better pay attention to managing customers’ perceptions of what you do and how you do it. The packaging of your product means a hell of a lot more to your sales than the quality of the actual product.

I know that my current CPA is probably doing the same thing as that original CPA did twenty some years ago. He is typing my figures into his software which is then spitting out whatever form I need to file. But the difference is that he doesn't do that in front of me. Instead, he meets with me in his office and twenty questions me about my business operations. We talk a bit and he offers feedback and advice. Then I give him the figures. He does my paperwork a few days later and calls for any additional information. During that time while I am sitting in his office chatting with him about business, it feels like I am getting my money’s worth for what I pay him. At least he is treating me as an individual with a unique business and awarding me the kind of personal consulting I feel I deserve.

I think that is what your web design clients are hoping for too.

So, if I was to hire a web designer, would I really care if they used a template or not? As long as the end result is excellent, who would care? I certainly wouldn't. But, if your marketing leaves people with the impression that you are going to charge them a couple grand to tweak a theme, they are going to be pissed and think that you are overcharging even if you aren't. They can’t see you spending ten hours to choose a font. They can’t see you scouring through thousands of images looking for the perfect photo to embed into their homepage. They can’t see the hours you spend trying to troubleshoot an HTML glitch that is causing an issue with their site design. Because they can’t see that, they don’t care. They don’t have any idea that you are going to go through that. They don’t know how much effort you honestly put into your work. They can only see what you show them.

Every business owner, no matter what industry they are in, will have their own version of this type of situation. I have it happen with IT work. The business owner usually doesn't realize that the only reason I can complete that project in under an hour is because I have over two decades of on the job experience. Some kid out of college might take an entire day to troubleshoot and solve the same problem that takes me one hour. But, the business owner doesn't know that. All they know is what they see. They see a problem fixed in one hour. So, they base their opinion on the limited amount of information they have. They don’t stop to think that I probably fixed that faster and for less money than some kid would have who charged half what I charge per hour.

Your clients and potential clients are basing their decisions and opinions on the same criteria. They don’t know what they can’t see.

So, if I was selling web design services, I would do my best to create the appearance that everything is customized even if you are using templates.

[Harold Mansfield]

Regarding templates: I don’t care what business you are in. If you give your customers the impression that you are overcharging them for what you are doing, then you are shooting yourself in the foot.
That has nothing to do with templates. Cleints actually request them. No one is avocating using a template and them telling the cleint that you built it from scratch. That's just wrong. But you'd be amazed at what you can do using a template as the base and how much time and money you can save a client by doing it.

I don't know anyone that would just use a template as is. Even if, as a web designer, you have to use a template, you still want to "Pimp" the hell out of it so that it isn't recognized from it's orginal form. I've customized templates that were recognized by design sites as greate customizations and didn't look anything like the base that I started with.

Like I said, every layout that works has been done already. There are 10's of 1000's of templates out there and really only about 10 ways to build a website that actually work. Not to mention frameworks.

You look at templates as easy work. Many times, its actually a little harder and if you don't have the skills and knowledge you won't be able to do anything with them. It's just the base with all of the neccessary coding that you need as a foundation. It's not in place of original ideas and design. At least that's not how I use them.

Using a template is like being a mechanic and knowing how to service every kind of car ever made anywhere in the world that comes in your door. Now how many people know how to do that?



The very first time I hired a CPA to do my income taxes was when I launched my first business in the early 1990’s. The guy charged me $250/hour. I met with him at his office. He asked me for the figures from my business. I watched him type those figures into a computer program. The computer program then spit out my tax return minutes later. I think I was in his office for all of 20 minutes. Cost to me - $250.

At that time I felt cheated and overcharged because, to me, all I saw was a guy typing figures that I gave him into his computer and charging me $250/hour to do it. I was pissed. I felt like, why don’t I just buy the program and type them in myself. I never went back to that CPA again. That guy added zero value to his service. He wasn't asking me anything to make sure my figures were accurate. I may as well have done the tax return myself and saved the $250. $250 for twenty minutes feels a lot like $750 per hour.

And that fact that he has the knowledge and the training to do it that fast is what you paid for. Or else you'd do it yourself. And it could just be that this particular guy was just bad.

The time it takes to do something is sometimes a testament to years of knowledge to be able to do it that fast. Or the fact that I have the software that is needed and know how to use it. When people call me with a technical problem, I may be able to fix it in 10 minutes. But, out of the million things that it could be, it took me 5 years to know exactly where to look for that particular symptom, and I have amassed the tools and hardware ( at great expense) to be able to do it efficiently . You're not paying me for 10 minutes. You're paying me for fixing it. It may take me 10 minutes, but I just used $500 worth of software to do it.




Web Design Templates – I have visited many websites of web designers. On many of them, the designer shows you examples of websites where the sample websites contain the “Lorem Ipsum” text that you see written on templates. As soon as I see that on their sample websites, I get the sense that all this person is doing is typing my text into a template and making some minor tweaks to that template. So to me, once again I think of this CPA experience where a guy charged me a ridiculous amount of money to type some figures into his computer.



So, as soon as I see a “Lorem Ipsum” template used as an example like that, I see that designer as being an “untalented” drone who is just going through mechanical motions. Is that fair to that designer? Maybe not. But, as a consumer, that is how it feels to me. And if you want to win business and build clientele, then you had better pay attention to managing customers’ perceptions of what you do and how you do it. The packaging of your product means a hell of a lot more to your sales than the quality of the actual product.

A lot of designers typically use that as dummy text to fill out a layout so that you can apply graphics, CSS changes, and images to the layout. Especially when you are waiting for the client to send you the actual copy. So many designers will generate some fake paragraphs to fill it out and we get that from here: Lorem Ipsum - All the facts - Lipsum generator (http://www.lipsum.com/).


Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book.

It is a long established fact that a reader will be distracted by the readable content of a page when looking at its layout. The point of using Lorem Ipsum is that it has a more-or-less normal distribution of letters, as opposed to using 'Content here, content here', making it look like readable English.

That's what it's for. You're not getting ripped off, we are doing our job. You can't very well show a client an empty design that has no copy in it. It will look like a deflated balloon and you won't be able to see the layout.

I think you are assuming that a designer is going to sell you a predesigned template and not tell you and pass it off as an original design. That's not how it works. At least that's not what any ethical web designer would do. But when you are talking about CMS's like WordPress, Joomla, and other publishing software, that's what the designs are called. They are called TEMPLATES because the software works on a template architecture. Doesn't matter if you design it from scratch or not. It's still called a TEMPLATE.

And you are right, people have no idea what you have to do to get a site up and running, but everyone expects it to be done.

I've spent hours just trying to help the client find their hosting information when they had no idea who they were hosted with.
I've spent days trying to gain access to a domain that was registered in Scotland and the company was only open M-F till 5p.m.Scottish time.

If you are on a certain budget and time frame (which most people are) , and you have NONE of your things together, meaning I have to do 20 hours work just to organize your materials, find your marketing collateral, and spend 2 hours on Photoshop trying to enhance the logo you had made 10 years ago, then you don't have the budget for something designed from scratch. So you are getting a customized template, and I of course will tell you that up front. And thank God you have that option now and every small business doesn't have to spend $6k on a website anymore.

Even before CMS's, web designers typically used [their own] templates as a base to start a project. Why rewrite the same base coding over and over again, when you know that every build starts with the exact same code?

Everyone tries to paint web design into this great creative corner where it's all about how pretty everything is. IT'S NOT. You are basically a web mechanic. People don't come to you and say "surprise me" . They come with specific needs, wants, and budgets. And you have to find the most cost effective way to give it to them and still do all of the other stuff that every website needs just on GP.

Every client is different. But it's going to be tough to get a web designer to do 15 pages of copy writing, and a design from scratch for $1500. In the real world the copy writing alone would blow that budget.

Many "web designers" will specialize in specific services and software's because there are so many ways to do it. I don't know anyone that does it all. And just as websites and clients are not all the same, web people aren't not all the same. There are some that do JUST the design and give you a pat on the back with a hearty "good luck". And there are MANY that "a la carte" every single thing that you want on the site. You want a form? That's an extra $150. You want Facebook integration? That's $50. You want on site SEO? That's $300. Not many businesses want graphic design only.

I'm a "designer" about 20% of the time. The other 80% of the time, I'm a builder. Most people don't look at me as some kind of artist, they look to me to come up with solutions to a problem. The graphics are almost the easy part. We can apply them to anything. Online, style is function. The last time I did a plain website that was just pretty images and graphics and nothing else, no functions, no Facebook integration, no blog, no SEO, no forms, no newsletter, no Sales Force, and all of the other things that everyone wants their website to do and integrate with these days...was never.

[Dan Furman]

Every business owner, no matter what industry they are in, will have their own version of this type of situation. I have it happen with IT work. The business owner usually doesn't realize that the only reason I can complete that project in under an hour is because I have over two decades of on the job experience.

You say this, but you can't see "beyond" face value for other industries?? I find that strange.

For my business, I somewhat expect businesspeople to understand that it's more than "just writing". My prices are too high for it to be any other way. If you don't "get" that I'm charging you mainly for my thought process and brain (way more than tapping keys / word count), you aren't going to be my customer. And I'm good with that.

[MyITGuy]

The very first time I hired a CPA to do my income taxes was when I launched my first business in the early 1990’s. The guy charged me $250/hour. I met with him at his office. He asked me for the figures from my business. I watched him type those figures into a computer program. The computer program then spit out my tax return minutes later. I think I was in his office for all of 20 minutes. Cost to me - $250.

At that time I felt cheated and overcharged because, to me, all I saw was a guy typing figures that I gave him into his computer and charging me $250/hour to do it. I was pissed. I felt like, why don’t I just buy the program and type them in myself. I never went back to that CPA again. That guy added zero value to his service. He wasn't asking me anything to make sure my figures were accurate. I may as well have done the tax return myself and saved the $250. $250 for twenty minutes feels a lot like $750 per hour.

This reminds me of the old Tesla/Ford legend:

“Nikola Tesla visited Henry Ford at his factory, which was having some
kind of difficulty. Ford asked Tesla if he could help identify the
problem area. Tesla walked up to a wall of boilerplate and made a
small X in chalk on one of the plates. Ford was thrilled, and told him
to send an invoice.

The bill arrived, for $10,000. Ford asked for a breakdown. Tesla sent
another invoice, indicating a $1 charge for marking the wall with an
X, and $9,999 for knowing where to put it.”

In the 90's, there wasn't much in the way of Tax programs that your accountant was using, so he likely paid a hefty sum to have it built for him, but what makes a difference is he was able to reduce/minimize the amount of time that you had to spend in his office doing the usual Q&A that other accountants may have spent hours on.

As for myself, I can't count how many times I've gone on site to a client or had them bring some piece of equipment into my office where I only spend a few minutes on solving the problem, but they still get charged the regular price (or if I'm on-site my minimum amount of time - usually 1 hour).

I.E. Just yesterday I had an insurance agent bring me their workstation that wouldn't bring anything up on the monitor/display for 20 minutes or so. They already took it to Office Depot (and likely paid a diagnostic fee) who thought it could be the add-on video card.

I put it on my bench, confirmed the issue, removed the add-on video card and used the on-board graphics instead and everything was back to normal. I called the customer before they made it out of my parking lot to let them know he could pick it back up.

Do you think this person felt cheated because they had to pay regular rates? I highly doubt it, I think they would feel more cheated by the Office Depot folks who likely charged him just to look at it. I think he feels better knowing a competent person looked over his computer, which reduced his downtime and potential for lost revenue because he couldn't do his job.

As a matter of fact, I was able to generate additional interest as I have an onsite visit next week to look over the rest of his computers/network and make recommendations which will likely drive additional revenue my way.

[MyITGuy]

To answer the OPs question - I would expect a web designer to have an up to date website that takes advantage of some of the technology that is available/they are pitching to me.

I came across a Craigslist advertisement the other day where the listing was advertising webdesign and website hosting, the link is below and the design has been changed from what it was....but do you think this person is going to get any business from their website/listings? I would doubt it (at least I would hope so!)
https://sites.google.com/site/thomasjameswilkinson92/

Note: This person offers hosting, but then utilizes Google Sites? :)

[Harold Mansfield]

To answer the OPs question - I would expect a web designer to have an up to date website that takes advantage of some of the technology that is available/they are pitching to me.

I came across a Craigslist advertisement the other day where the listing was advertising webdesign and website hosting, the link is below and the design has been changed from what it was....but do you think this person is going to get any business from their website/listings? I would doubt it (at least I would hope so!)
https://sites.google.com/site/thomasjameswilkinson92/

Note: This person offers hosting, but then utilizes Google Sites? :)

Oh my :o . It's almost as if it's an intentional joke. He's using all free Google stuff, but the design is older than Google itself. Websites haven't looked like that since back before Alta Vista was the number one search engine.

[Ted]

@ Harold @Dan

I guess I did a poor job of trying to explain my point so that I would be properly understood.

I tried setting up the proper perspective at the beginning of my last post when I said “Please read all my posts in this particular thread from the viewpoint that I am a paying customer for web design services. That is the perspective I am trying to add to the conversation which is what I think the original poster was hoping to get feedback on.”

Sometimes trying to get a point across by typing it is terribly inefficient compared to the efficiency you get from a two way conversation face to face. Grrrrrrrrrrr……

@Harold
In my original response to this thread I mentioned how the use of templates would be perceived as “cheap” and “less talented” than custom design work.

You have done a fine job of explaining why and how templates can be used while still creating high quality design work. I am sure when you get the chance to meet with prospects and explain that to them, then they probably appreciate that information. But, first you have to get the prospect to grant you the time of day to explain all of that. Until you get the chance to do that, the prospect is still making his decision about who to work with based on his lack of information. If this prospect thinks (templates=bad) and you advertise templates, then he will probably never grant you the time of day to explain to him why his thinking is misguided. He will just bounce from your website and keep looking for someone who doesn't look like they use templates. That is the point I was trying to make. And my intention of making it was for the benefit of the original poster who asked what small business owners would look for in a web designer.

Your explanation about the use of templates in web design, although well done and worthy of its own entirely separate thread, does nothing to help answer the original poster’s question. That is the point I am trying to make without stepping on toes or offending anyone.

The guy asked “what would small business owners look for in a web designer”.

I tried to explain that “from the perspective of a business owner who doesn’t do web design” I perceive web designers who have sample portfolios that look like “template websites” as being second rate designers.

If you are trying to sell web design services, it does not matter if that perception is accurate. In the prospect’s mind, he thinks he is right until someone convinces him otherwise. Therefore, he will shop for a designer while looking through that lens.

So, all other things being equal, a small business owner with the same preconceived ideas would rather choose a web designer who looks like they do custom work.

@Dan
If you want a full explanation of the CPA situation, I would be happy to explain my views on that in another thread. I kept it brief here because I was just trying to use the CPA story to help make a point. I can assure you that the vast majority of people, probably you too, would understand my point if given the whole picture.

[Harold Mansfield]

@Harold
In my original response to this thread I mentioned how the use of templates would be perceived as “cheap” and “less talented” than custom design work.

You have done a fine job of explaining why and how templates can be used while still creating high quality design work. I am sure when you get the chance to meet with prospects and explain that to them, then they probably appreciate that information. But, first you have to get the prospect to grant you the time of day to explain all of that. Until you get the chance to do that, the prospect is still making his decision about who to work with based on his lack of information. If this prospect thinks (templates=bad) and you advertise templates, then he will probably never grant you the time of day to explain to him why his thinking is misguided. He will just bounce from your website and keep looking for someone who doesn't look like they use templates. That is the point I was trying to make. And my intention of making it was for the benefit of the original poster who asked what small business owners would look for in a web designer.

Your explanation about the use of templates in web design, although well done and worthy of its own entirely separate thread, does nothing to help answer the original poster’s question. That is the point I am trying to make without stepping on toes or offending anyone.

The guy asked “what would small business owners look for in a web designer”.

I tried to explain that “from the perspective of a business owner who doesn’t do web design” I perceive web designers who have sample portfolios that look like “template websites” as being second rate designers.

If you are trying to sell web design services, it does not matter if that perception is accurate. In the prospect’s mind, he thinks he is right until someone convinces him otherwise. Therefore, he will shop for a designer while looking through that lens.

So, all other things being equal, a small business owner with the same preconceived ideas would rather choose a web designer who looks like they do custom work.


I don't think you recognize templates as well as you think you do, nor are you recognizing the different ways there are to build a website. Show me 5 small business sites ( not sites like Google or Amazon that have inhouse 24/7 programmers) , and I guarantee I'll show you a least 3 templates that could have been used as the base.

Using a template doesn't always mean using a ready made design and just dropping the copy in. Sometimes it's just the base coding that you want. You still have to apply a design to it.

And different clients have different needs and want different things. If you are using a CMS like WordPress, you are getting a template. That's what they are called. Now whether it's custom styled from the ground up or using another as a base is up to you, your budget and your needs. But they are still called templates because they are coded to work specifically with the WordPress software and nothing else. They ALL start with the same base code template so that they work with the software. You can custom code functions and post types, style, graphics, moving objects, flashy things, all kinds of integration and whatever else you need to, but the base code that makes it work is the same starting template for everyone on the web.

Just because you see a portfolio that you think are all templates, doesn't mean that's all the guy can do or that you are correct. It just means that's what his last few clients wanted. A web designer will build you what you ask for. If there is a base template that is exactly what you want, but you still want me to code it from scratch...no problem. Whatever you want. More money for me. It's not all or nothing and it's not all the same. Most websites are a combination of scripts, code languages, designs, graphics, and templates all on the same site.

A prime example of a ready made template or function that I use is called Next Gen Gallery. If you wanted that on your website, but built from scratch, the cost would far exceed the price of the entire website. Templates and ready made programs are the ONLY reason why you aren't paying $10k to have a website built. THE ONLY REASON.

Wouldn't you be pissed if what you wanted already existed and I charged you $3k and took 2 months just to replicate it and change the colors?
If you think every web designer out there hand codes every inch of the site, and creates every single graphic by hand from scratch like it's 1999, you are mistaken. Or else basic a 5 page website would still cost $6k and you still wouldn't be able to manage it yourself.

Automation, CMS's and better tools are what has made website's affordable for the average small business.

I understand where you are coming from, but you have missed the point on how the web has changed from the days of $6k HTML websites hand coded on notepad, and what people are asking for now so that they can complete today.

[Ted]

@Harold

Dude....

If you really want to keep talking about templates and want to get me to think of the word "template" the same way you think about it, that is cool...

But it should probably be done in a different thread as it is meaningless to the original series of questions as asked by the original poster.

Wouldn't you agree?

Maybe that is where we see things differently?

I thought the post was asking for a perspective from a small business owner as to "what would that small business owner be looking for"

That is what I have based all my advice on. Shouldn't we keep this thread on track for the benefit of the original poster and anyone seeking information about what he asked?

[Harold Mansfield]

@Harold

Dude....

If you really want to keep talking about templates and want to get me to think of the word "template" the same way you think about it, that is cool...

But it should probably be done in a different thread as it is meaningless to the original series of questions as asked by the original poster.

Wouldn't you agree?

Maybe that is where we see things differently?

I thought the post was asking for a perspective from a small business owner as to "what would that small business owner be looking for"

That is what I have based all my advice on. Shouldn't we keep this thread on track for the benefit of the original poster and anyone seeking information about what he asked?

Actually, I think it's quite enlightening to hear your take on it and what you think is actually going on to formulate your opinion of what you expect from a web designer.

More than half the websites on the web are WordPress or some kind of CMS. The software itself, is a template. This forum is a template. Huffington Post is a template. New York Times online is a template. Mashable is a template. PDF's are templates. Powerpoint presentations are templates. MS Word Docs are templates. Yes, you customize them all, but they ALL started as basic, general, identically coded templates and no matter how you arange the layout, colors, graphics and images...underneath they are run on the same code. A template.

I don't think you are getting that.

Seriously, if every inch of every website was built from scratch, with all of the functions that people want now AND they want easy administrative control, you'd be paying at least $10k a site. And anyone would be more than happy to build that for you. Just ask. Templates, CMS's and plug ins are why the cost has come down. But you still need to know what to do with them. And that takes a lot of skill and knowledge.

Actually, non template, non CMS based websites are easier to build. Much easier. Anyone that just wants an HTML website is a dream job. It's the functions that will start to cost you. But if you want it all from scratch, completely all my own coding so that you need me to do everything into the future. No problem. I'd love to do more sites like that. I'd make more money.

The point is, no one is substituting templates as original work. There is no need. Templates ( depending on the CMS) are MUCH harder to work with and people charge far more money to work with them, than they do just for HTML. Some templates are so advanced that you need a specialist to use them. We aren't talking about basic HTML frames anymore. You have to know PHP, JS, HTML5, Mobile, and all kinds of crap to work with and customize them.

A web person has to be flexible to what people want and what's going on today. Not how it used to be and just stick to it.

I can't vouch for what other designers do. There very well may be"web designers" that will take your money, plop a $15 HTML template down as is, paste copy in it, toss in a few free stock images, and that's it. $1000.

Just like there are people who actually ask for templates, "Just install the software and this template for me, set it up and I'll take it from there".

You're trying to put in all into one box and make sweeping assumptions as if every build is the same, and that's not the way it is anymore. One week I'm customizing a template for someone, the next I'm trying to decipher a bunch of old psd's to include in a design. It's not all one thing anymore and templates are a part of the many possibilities, and ways that sites are built. That's reality in 2013.

And you can get it anyway you want it. Budget willing.

[Fulcrum]

This thread has been quite a read and it has also reaffirmed my feelings on not wanting to learn anything about web design. I do think I can give an answer to the OP's question though.

I do not have a website for my business and my business has never had one. In fact, slightly less than half of my current customer base would not be able to access one even if it were in place. I have given some thought to how I would like one setup. What I would want is:

1) It must look professional
2) It must have e-commerce capability
3) It must be easy for any user to find what they are looking for
4) It needs to be completely hands free from my end. I have no interest in learning how to operate and manage a website from the design side. Back-office features for the sales side is no problem, but I don't want to spend time maintaining the site.
5) I don't want to have to market the site myself. SEO, ABC, 12X, (along with whatever "made-up" acronyms are out there) needs to be included in the building and maintenance of the site.
6) Finally, cost and time to build the site. I understand that quality products take time and don't come cheap, but barring any on the fly design changes or catastrophic events, I do expect to have it delivered on time and on budget.

In regards to the template foundation vs. custom code debate that is going on - it does not matter to me how something gets built. I just want something built that will work and that the builder will be able to maintain and market it.

I hope this sheds a little light on the subject and that it doesn't make me come across as overly demanding or a high maintenance type of customer.

[Wozcreative]

5) I don't want to have to market the site myself. SEO, ABC, 12X, (along with whatever "made-up" acronyms are out there) needs to be included in the building and maintenance of the site.


On-site SEO needs to be included, but you will need to market the site yourself, or pay monthly fees to get a specialized company to do it. This may include even paying for advertisements. You're either paying heavily, or you are doing it yourself. Most companies don't have the capital to invest in proper SEO (which can take a minimum of 6 - 8 months to show if it is working properly).

You won't really find a designer/developer that will also market your website, unless it is with a design agency. It's kind of like having a builder make you a house and expecting them to be your real estate agent too.

[Dan Furman]

@Dan
If you want a full explanation of the CPA situation, I would be happy to explain my views on that in another thread. I kept it brief here because I was just trying to use the CPA story to help make a point. I can assure you that the vast majority of people, probably you too, would understand my point if given the whole picture.

Nah, I'm pretty sure I get where you are coming from (I have had almost the exact same experience - half hour in an office, enters in some stuff, viola, my taxes done. Several hundred bucks, please".) And to a point, I even agree, but I'd probably stop short at feeling cheated. In most places, you can't call yourself an accountant without having the degree (thus making his time worth more). I also recognize that my accountant also has helped (at various times) with other, more complicated things. I am paying him for the overall service, not just the nuts and bolts of the time spent today. As a fellow business owner, I try and recongnize this in others.

That said, I do feel that if possible, most business owners should close the curtain a little bit. What your accountant should have done is get/enter your info, send you on your way, and e-mail you the return the next day, giving the illusion that more time was spent.

[vangogh]

Similar to the accountant story, years ago I went to visit my doctor. I knew exactly what was wrong with me, because I had it a few months earlier. The only thing I needed the doctor to do was write a prescription for what he had previously written. I had a mild case of bronchitis and needed some penicillin basically. He saw me for about 2 minutes confirmed what I already knew, gave me the prescription and charged me $150 or whatever it was. Did I want to pay? of course not. But I didn't feel cheated. I didn't pay for his time, but I paid for his signature and the patient I bumped from his schedule for the few minutes I was in his office.


Please read all my posts in this particular thread from the viewpoint that I am a paying customer for web design services. That is the perspective I am trying to add to the conversation which is what I think the original poster was hoping to get feedback on.


That's fine. I think it's good to ad that perspective. I can't speak for everyone who's disagreeing, but I can speak for myself. Given the original question I take it the OP is a web designer or looking to become one. To me one of the more important things to do to stay in a business like this is to understand your value. I'm sure many of my clients would like to pay their price when they hire me, but if I worked at their price I'd have stopped eating long ago and the bank would currently own my place.


If you give your customers the impression that you are overcharging them for what you are doing, then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Or you're marketing to the wrong customers. Contrary to the slogan, the customer is not always right. My impression is that most people don't really appreciate the value of what quality design will do for their business. Most is not everyone though. I can be successful serving those people who do appreciate the value and ignoring all those who don't. I can also serve those people who may not appreciate what quality design can do by finding a way to give them something that fits within their budget. That could mean taking advantage of existing solutions. I typically build sites on WordPress now. One of the main reasons I started doing that was because I realized most clients weren't willing to pay me thousands of dollars for a custom content management system. I wouldn't charge someone thousands of dollars for installing WordPress and a theme, but I don't see anything wrong with charging them to install it, spend the time to find them a theme, configure WordPress and add what I think will be helpful plugins. And that doesn't even include customizing anything.


If I thought a designer was using a template, I would envision him/her spending 5 hours customizing a template

You're assuming customization only takes 5 hours. Sometimes that's true. Sometimes that's not. I've had clients not want to spend the money on a custom theme so they find a theme and ask me to customize it to their specifications. However the time it would take to do what they want would actually have been more than it would have taken me to build a new theme from scratch.

Lots of clients will only know what they want after they've seen it. Maybe it is only 5 hours of customization, but I probably had to do that 5 hours 4 or 5 times.

Custom services don't have a set time for every project. That's why they're custom. Few sites are exactly alike. If you need a 5 page site filled with static content it takes a certain amount of time. If all 5 of those pages need to be programmed applications it's a lot more time.


Every business owner, no matter what industry they are in, will have their own version of this type of situation. I have it happen with IT work. The business owner usually doesn't realize that the only reason I can complete that project in under an hour is because I have over two decades of on the job experience.

I just want to echo what was already said about this. You accept that you have over 2 decades of experience, but you aren't giving credit to designers for having experience or an accountant for having experience. The price of a service shouldn't be based solely on time. If it were then it would be in every service provider's interest never to learn to do their jobs well since that leads to them doing it quicker.

@Ted - I hope this isn't coming across as an attack on you. I apologize if it is. I understand the perspective you're taking. Because I'm on the other side of the fence in this discussion I want to present that other side. I think both are valuable to anyone interested in any service based business, not just web design. Service based businesses have to charge based on the value they give to the client. It can't be based on time or even what the client perceives to be the right price. if we do it's easy for us to go out of businesses.

We can use time to understand our own costs, but I'm sure most, if not all, service providers, will tell you that most projects end up taking longer than we think. It's common for me to think something will take 20 hours only to find the client wants every little thing tried 5 times when I thought they might ask for a few twice. I've watched 20 hour jobs turn into 60 hours for all sorts of reasons.

[Ted]

To all you web designers and web workers who have spoken directly to me in this thread -

Do you realize you hijacked that thread and twisted it into something the original poster didn’t even ask about?

I left a response to the original poster trying to be as helpful as I could.

You guys jumped into the conversation, butting in as if I was speaking directly to you personally, and began defending the web design industry and anyone who uses templates as if my words had offended you.

My intent in responding the original post was not to attack the web design industry or anyone who uses templates. I don’t care how you do what you do.

My intent was to inform the original poster about what the “mindset” of his prospect is.

I feel that “my feedback was helpful to what the original poster was asking about”.

Since then, I have had to try to explain a bunch of crap that is irrelevant to what the original poster asked. People keep prodding in about crap that is completely irrelevant to what this thread was about.

Thus I feel compelled to respond about things that I never wanted to talk about. And the explanations I need to give in order for you guys to understand me properly require very lengthy responses that I don’t feel like I should even need to explain.

I have tried, completely unsuccessfully, to put this thread back on track because some web designer’s feelings were hurt when he found out that “people who hire web designers” don’t think about the web design industry in the same way that he wishes he would.

Could I have been any more politically correct or polite in my methods of trying to put the thread back on track? Really, tell me, because I am pushing the limits of my sanity trying to be polite and politically correct.

I was trying to be helpful to a new forum participant. And my reward for doing so is to be ridiculed and have my character twisted into something it is not.

I feel like I have been put on a witness stand in court where I am trying to defend myself all alone against a team of lawyers who are trying to twist my words into something other than what I meant to say. Really guys….come on. I am honestly trying my best to help the original poster and yet I feel like every word I say is unfairly being scrutinized.

For the record – I have no problem paying for quality or for expertise. If you think otherwise because of my CPA example then it is because you don’t understand that scenario. I am pissed that I even used it as an example. I wouldn’t have had to use it if you people weren’t dragging the forum thread off on a tangent from what the original poster asked.

For the record – Yes I know what templates are. It is a pretty easy word to understand actually. In the context I originally used the word, I was talking about the common industry cheap ass templates that cost anywhere from $15-$100 and can be purchased from any number of websites.

A person (small business owner) who goes searching for a web designer or ideas about web designs is very likely to come across a website that sells those cheap templates. So, in the back of his mind, while he is shopping for a web designer, he is going to be thinking of those cheap templates as being one of his options for designing his website.

My point was that if you are a web designer who charges thousands of dollars and you give prospects the sense or the perception that you are going to use one of those cheap templates for their site, then they are going to feel like you are overcharging. Is that really a hard concept to grasp? WTF?

It doesn’t matter if it is fair or not for the prospect to have that perception of those templates. If the prospect thinks that those (templates = cheap web design) then you probably don’t want to give him the impression that you use cheap looking templates. Does anyone not understand this?

In the IT world, everybody wants fast response times. So, even if I was slower than my competition, I would not want to advertise the fact that I was slower or give them that impression at all because it is bad marketing. Get my point? How else can I explain it? WTF?

If my words and opinions have offended any of you web designers or people who work on websites – then I am truly sorry. My intent was not to offend anyone working in that industry. My intent was only to help the original poster understand what I think his prospects are thinking.

And I am going to assume that none of you are intentionally trying to piss me off or to make me out to be someone that I am not. If your intent was to piss me off or gang up on me, then imagine me whipping the bird at you right now. Let’s go quail hunting and I’ll pull a Dick Cheney on your ass. (that remark was intended to be humorous)

Another matter that seems to have been ignored here – Put yourself in the shoes of that person who started this thread.

Have you ever started a new thread on a forum where you asked a question because you really wanted to get feedback on that topic? Then someone comes along and changes the topic of that thread. It pisses you off if you were really trying to get some good on-topic information from the thread. It makes you not want to participate in that forum anymore. I feel bad for the person who started this thread.

The original poster asked a really high level question (in my opinion) that I feel is truly the key to building a successful business. He is trying to better understand the mindset of his prospect. That is one of the ultimate keys to success in business in my personal opinion.

If you really want to help the guy, want to make yourself useful and want to make the forum more useful, why not just answer his question?

I have done my best to try to put this thread back on track.

[Harold Mansfield]

Ted, topics around here do typically get more involved that just the surface question because more than one person benefits from a question, but I think this has been a good thread and I hope you don't take the back and forth personally. If I didn't think your opinion intelligent, and important to the conversation I certainly wouldn't spend so much time engaging with you.

And I want to add that I am ( we all are) well aware of the stigma that comes with being a web designer. The only experience many people (over 40) have with web designers is either horror stores from other people, or back in the day when a crappy website costs you $5k.

Web designers are seen by many as arrogant assholes who talk over your head, won't return your calls and are going to overcharge you for everything. Every other person I have as a client got screwed in the past, and I typically see bad break ups between clients and the webmaster's they are trying to shed.

I am so aware of these problems in our industry that I have written multiple articles (and am now writing a book) that I distribute to clients and potential clients on what to look for, how to prepare, how to save money, how to keep your project on time and budget, and whatever I can do to help them understand the process so that they feel in control of it and not in the dark.

So it does help to hear other opinions about how people think we operate, what they do or don't understand, or what they expect from us. And that's what this thread has been.

Even though you sound a little irritated that we went off track, I think it has been a very good conversation.

[Wozcreative]

If it is a topic that a lot of people are passionate about, we may give more information than needed (as you see here, a lot of us are web designers/developers.). We're all adults here, we can choose to ignore posts that don't apply. Webdesign is SUCH a vast topic you cannot talk about one thing without mentioning another.

Regarding the use of templates, some people are passionate about using them, to make quick money and go. Some people like myself, will take projects that actually is "designing". I won't take a quick and dirty website project, but I won't take any big UI projects either. If you are strictly in the web design industry (which I am not), then yes, you will need to use templates to become profitable, which is why these people say "no use in reinventing the wheel" if the client can't pay for it. I have the luxury of picking and prodding at a variety of projects to keep me interested because I also do print design, branding, package design etc. So I won't settle for clients that can't afford customized work because it kills the joy for me. Thats how I will burn myself out.

[Harold Mansfield]

Regarding the use of templates, some people are passionate about using them, to make quick money and go.

It's basically going to be what the client wants, needs and is budgeted for. "to make quick money and go" and "new website" do not go hand and hand.
You use the right tool for the job.

[Dan Furman]

To all you web designers and web workers who have spoken directly to me in this thread -

Do you realize you hijacked that thread and twisted it into something the original poster didn’t even ask about?

Well, to start, this isn't Usenet circa 1995, when "off topic" was considered taboo. Here, threads often turn into discussions, which is fine. I think it's been good so far.

But let's be honest - your first post in this thread could definitely be seen as a challenge to web designers. In essance, you said you wanted a custom site from scratch, and then threw $1500 out there. And totally disparaged templates. Plus, you offered web designers marketing advice that they never thought of (did you web designers say thanks?)

Essentially, the web designers here answered you.

Truthfully, you kind of come off as that blustery business guy who wants everyone to "get" him, but he doesn't get others. You had certain requirements that would catch your eye that you posted to the OP ("built from scratch" "$10,000 site for $1500 and guaranteed to impress"), and those requirements are almost laughable. Really, following your advice there is to aim for the worst customer ever. My advice to the OP is to market for good clients who don't mind paying for good work, not somebody who knows it all and looks for the best price (which basically you said you would do - you said if you found someone doing good work for about what you'd expect to pay, you'd still shop around. Let's be honest - that's almost always a crap client.)

I'm not sure if you meant to come off that way, but that's how you came off to me.

But again, none of this is bad. It's been a good discussion.

Edit: I don't mean to imply that your wants/needs were all bad. I was especially impressed with your timeframes - most people want stuff done yesterday. You seem more reasonable than that. However, expecting a callback within an hour is a bit much. Especially when dealing with small shops.

[Wozcreative]

The very first time I hired a CPA to do my income taxes was when I launched my first business in the early 1990’s. The guy charged me $250/hour. I met with him at his office. He asked me for the figures from my business. I watched him type those figures into a computer program. The computer program then spit out my tax return minutes later. I think I was in his office for all of 20 minutes. Cost to me - $250.

At that time I felt cheated and overcharged because, to me, all I saw was a guy typing figures that I gave him into his computer and charging me $250/hour to do it. I was pissed. I felt like, why don’t I just buy the program and type them in myself. I never went back to that CPA again. That guy added zero value to his service. He wasn't asking me anything to make sure my figures were accurate. I may as well have done the tax return myself and saved the $250. $250 for twenty minutes feels a lot like $750 per hour.



I had to go back and re-read what everyone is arguing about.. and I lolled really hard when I read this. Most top tier professional businesses have a minimum before they even pick up a finger. The meeting itself involved him to make himself available for you, a small job guy, over someone he could have taken for someone bigger, it may have involved him hiring a receptionist to deal with setting it up, definitely involves him going to years of education, AND years of continued education (accountants need ot be up to date all the time, otherwise you'd be in trouble), it also involves a safety net in the case if he ever DID **** up, he would most likely fix his issue, it also involves the ability to foresee any problems that could occur with what you are submitting, overhead, profit margins etc etc.

Why did you not just go to a student if price was an issue for you? I'm sure you had a general quote/estimate before you went, if not that is your fault.

I'm just surprised why someone would consider this even at all an issue when we know how the world works. Plumbers will not charge you for 10 minutes of their time, they have a minimum. A cleaning lady will not charge you for 1 hour, but they have a minimum of 3 hours or 4 hours to make it worth their time.

[Ted]

I'm just surprised why someone would consider this even at all an issue when we know how the world works.

Can anyone feel my pain?

Do you see what is happening now?

Now people have the impression that I am not the kind of person who would be willing to pay a professional for their time.

And they get that impression because I used that CPA example in response to something that I didn’t even want to talk about.

So now I am cornered.

Thanks……. Effin thanks.

You guys have successfully made me feel totally unwelcome in this forum.

And the legacy left behind for me at this forum is a complete misconception of the kind of person I really am.

@Wozcreative – You don’t understand the scenario in which that CPA charged me that $250. It is not as you are imagining it. If you understood it, you would probably agree with me. And, I don’t wish to explain or talk about it farther. Somebody please shoot me now.

You guys have made me feel like a real asshole.

Thanks.

[Dan Furman]

I'm just surprised why someone would consider this even at all an issue when we know how the world works. Plumbers will not charge you for 10 minutes of their time, they have a minimum. A cleaning lady will not charge you for 1 hour, but they have a minimum of 3 hours or 4 hours to make it worth their time.

I totally understand a layman/employee comparing a lawyer or an accountant or an auto mechanic or a web designer with their own $15 an hour job, but not a successful business owner. That's what surprised me a bit about this. Ted says there's more to the story, and perhaps there is, but this is all we have to go on.

[Dan Furman]

Can anyone feel my pain?

Do you see what is happening now?

Now people have the impression that I am not the kind of person who would be willing to pay a professional for their time.

And they get that impression because I used that CPA example in response to something that I didn’t even want to talk about.

So now I am cornered.

Thanks……. Effin thanks.

You guys have successfully made me feel totally unwelcome in this forum.

And the legacy left behind for me at this forum is a complete misconception of the kind of person I really am.

@Wozcreative – You don’t understand the scenario in which that CPA charged me that $250. It is not as you are imagining it. If you understood it, you would probably agree with me. And, I don’t wish to explain or talk about it farther. Somebody please shoot me now.

You guys have made me feel like a real asshole.

Thanks.

Seriously, you are taking this waaaaaay too personal.

And you are very welcome here.

But everything discussed so far is valid - nobody is jumping to any conclusion. You did say you felt cheated by being charged an hourly rate for 20 minutes of work. You probably spent more time saying there's more to the story than actually telling us the "more" part. And your first post was pretty challenging to designers. Sorry, but it was.

And it still turned into a good discussion.

[Wozcreative]

Ted, just calm down! Just because we don't agree with certain things, does not mean you are not welcome. It's passionate business people speaking about what they love, business! You will get into heated arguments but then you are supposed to hug after it's over :)

[Dan Furman]

Ted, just calm down! Just because we don't agree with certain things, does not mean you are not welcome. It's passionate business people speaking about what they love, business! You will get into heated arguments but then you are supposed to hug after it's over :)

Or beer. Where in NY are you, Ted?

[Fulcrum]

On-site SEO needs to be included, but you will need to market the site yourself, or pay monthly fees to get a specialized company to do it. This may include even paying for advertisements. You're either paying heavily, or you are doing it yourself. Most companies don't have the capital to invest in proper SEO (which can take a minimum of 6 - 8 months to show if it is working properly).

You won't really find a designer/developer that will also market your website, unless it is with a design agency. It's kind of like having a builder make you a house and expecting them to be your real estate agent too.

Hence the reason I haven't pursued having a website made yet.

To be honest though, if I get to the point of needing a high traffic, high sales website, I would hire a sales person that is also able to manage and market it.

[Harold Mansfield]

To be honest though, if I get to the point of needing a high traffic, high sales website, I would hire a sales person that is also able to manage and market it.
Um, it doesn't exactly work that way. You don't just build a "high traffic, high sales website". Your first website will have no traffic and no sales. What you do after you build it, will determine how much traffic it gets and there is a lot to learn. Hiring a salesperson to run your website, is not going to get you there.

If it was that easy, that you could just built it to be high traffic, everyone with a computer would be rich.

The good news is, plenty of people around here can shed some light on the difficulties of how to get started.

[MyITGuy]

Just encountered this recently - A designer who will respond in a timely manner when a security issue has been detected...

One of my hosting clients (A non-profit) has had their Joomla installation attacked because it wasn't kept up to date (They've engaged their designer several times since). I notified the client and their developer two weeks ago that they need to check on their installation as scripts were uploaded and sent thousands of pieces of spam (I performed a quick cleanup to mitigate the issue).

Same thing happened last week, I sent a reminder and performed a quick cleanup/mitigation.

Last night I get an alert from one of my upstream bandwidth providers that this clients site is now being used to host scripts that spam is referring to.

Still haven't heard back from the developer....so now I'm forced to go through their account with a fine tooth comb to change passwords, remove scripts, update their CMS (Which may break things) just so one of my carriers doesn't shut me down...

[Harold Mansfield]

Just encountered this recently - A designer who will respond in a timely manner when a security issue has been detected...

One of my hosting clients (A non-profit) has had their Joomla installation attacked because it wasn't kept up to date (They've engaged their designer several times since). I notified the client and their developer two weeks ago that they need to check on their installation as scripts were uploaded and sent thousands of pieces of spam (I performed a quick cleanup to mitigate the issue).

Same thing happened last week, I sent a reminder and performed a quick cleanup/mitigation.

Last night I get an alert from one of my upstream bandwidth providers that this clients site is now being used to host scripts that spam is referring to.

Still haven't heard back from the developer....so now I'm forced to go through their account with a fine tooth comb to change passwords, remove scripts, update their CMS (Which may break things) just so one of my carriers doesn't shut me down...

I love that there are so many crappy developers and webmasters out there. It's a good portion of my calls...people who are fed up with their current web person.

[MyITGuy]

I love that there are so many crappy developers and webmasters out there. It's a good portion of my calls...people who are fed up with their current web person.

Agreed, the same could be said for IT people as well :)

It just sucks for me because I can't choose what developer my clients use and my services are being threatened with termination if the issue is not corrected, which leaves me to cleanup their site myself or suspend the account. Being that this is a non-profit and I'm a nice guy I would prefer to keep the site online.

On the flip side, I got a chuckle out of the 'designer' who uploaded their photo to my clients account:
http://mysbsc.org/images/nick.jpg

[billbenson]

That is funny!

[vangogh]

A designer who will respond in a timely manner when a security issue has been detected

I once discovered an attack on a client's site. The attacker got in through an old installation of osCommerce and some misconfigured settings by my client. I'd been recommending moving the site to WordPress or Drupal for about a year. The attacker had positioned himself to collect credit card data. As soon as I found the attack I quickly cleaned the site and let my client know. Fortunately the attack hadn't been in place long and while some customers were potentially affected, most weren't. I held my client's hand every day for a month putting much of my business on hold without getting paid. I let my client know it was too important and we'd work something out later The security expert my client hired said my client was lucky to have me working on the site to have found the attack so quickly. He said I saved the business.

My client was very appreciative until a month or so later after everything had been secured and then went back to telling me how the most basic things couldn't be paid for and wanted to cut back on what I was being paid at the time. The appreciate was gone. That the business still existed because of me was long forgotten. There was never anything worked out later. Instead it was back to the usual calls on Friday night with the emergency that needed to be fixed by Saturday morning, which of course couldn't be paid for.

I fired my client.